Via Media Podcast, Episode 32 Anglican Basics: Summary with a Veteran Priest Chip Edgar January 30, 2020 https://www.beesondivinity.com/the-institute-of-anglican-studies/podcast/2019/anglican-basics-summary-with-a-veteran-priest Announcer: The Institute of Anglican Studies at Beeson Divinity School welcomes you to Via Media, a podcast exploring the religious and theological worlds from an Anglican perspective. Here is your host Gerald McDermott. McDermott: We want to tell our listening audience today about a great deal that they can get. Crossway Publishers is bringing out our book that I�ve edited called the future of orthodox Anglicanism at the end of February. This is a book that comes out of our Anglican theology Conference that we held here several years ago at Beeson Divinity School. Fourteen Anglicans from around the world talk about the future of Orthodox Anglicanism�-what they believe the essence of Anglicanism is and how the see the future playing out. It�s a rich book full of much insight I believe on the Anglican communion and the future of the Anglican communion. And you can get 50% off go to crossway.org/plus and once there become a member of Crossway Plus, and that�s free and then when you checkout with the book The Future of orthodox Anglicanism, that�s edited by Gerald McDermott, enter the code VMEDIA, not Via Media but VMEDIA in caps V M E D I A at checkout, and they will give you 50% off the price of the book. So you want to look for the Future of Orthodox Anglicanism that�s edited by Gerald mc and go to crossway.org/plus, become a member of Crossway Plus, it�s free, and then when you checkout the book enter the code vmedia, v m e d i a. And you will get 50% of the price of the book. But you have to do this by January 31st the book comes out in February. So this is a pre-order. You have to do this by the end of January sometime before January 31s. Welcome to Via Media. This is the last in our series of Anglican Basics. Today we are doing a summary interview with a veteran priest of 26 years in the priesthood. I am delighted to have here with us today Father Chip Edgar, who is the founding Rector and now the Dean of the Cathedral Church of the Apostles in Columbia, South Carolina. Chip, welcome to Via Media. Edgar: Gerry, thanks really much for having me. It�s exciting for me to have the chance to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and I kind of recognize that if my son didn�t have a foot in the door I probably wouldn�t have this great privilege, but I�m grateful ... I�ll take the scraps that he leaves off the table. (laughs) McDermott: Well, you are one of the veterans and I�ve heard about you for years and I think you have a lot to share with us, particularly at this point in the Via Media series where we�ve interviewed various people and different aspects of Anglicanism. We wanted to finish with a veteran priest, talking about the priesthood. So, let me tell our listeners a little bit more about you. You were raised in Huntsville, Alabama. And Father Chip received his bachelor�s degree in Physical Education from Wheaton College. I note that he was a swimmer in distance butterfly and captain of the swim team. Boy, butterfly, that has to be the toughest � and distance at that! That has to be the toughest race. (laughs) I can�t imagine. Then Chip worked as a campus minister for the Coalition for Christian Outreach outside of Pittsburgh before studying theology at TEDS (Trinity Evangelical Divinity School) by Chicago. Then went on to study theology more at the School of Theology at the University of the South in Sewanee, Tennessee. Chip was ordained a priest in May 1994, has served parishes in Tennessee, in Florida, and in Illinois, before being called to the Church of the Apostles. And I�d have to say one of his principal accomplishments, and something that makes me take off my proverbial hat before him, is that he and his wife, Beth, have five children. So, he has as I tell my students sometimes, he�s obeyed the first commandment in scripture � to be fruitful and multiply. So, Chip, let me start by asking you about the phenomenon that we have all over the ACNA of Anglican churches being filled with former evangelicals, or a lot of them would say I�m still proud to call myself an evangelical, and there are a lot of things to be proud of in the evangelical tradition � going back to Jonathan Edwards and John Wesley in the 18th century. But many of our Anglican churches are made up of these former evangelicals or present evangelicals who have come from a way of being Christian that�s different, in some ways, from the historic Anglican ways. For example, they have pastors, not priests. They think of ordinances, which remember things that happened 2,000 years ago, not sacraments in which the claim is that things actually happen and change things ontologically, and somehow things that happen 2,000 years ago are made present. They do Sunday school, but not usually what we call catechesis. They think of the Church as a gathering of the like-minded who have a personal relationship with Christ, but they don�t typically think of the Church as the Body of Christ, where we meet the living Messiah in one another and in Word and in Sacrament, and are joined in being to the saints and the angels, especially at the Eucharist. So, Chip, in your many years of ministry as an Anglican priest, what are some of the most difficult transitions for evangelicals that you have seen coming into our churches? Edgar: Well, so I don�t know about the word �difficult.� I mean, my experience is that we offer a sort of a robust Anglican, higher church, sacramentally rich worship tradition. The evangelicals who make their way to us usually embrace it pretty full on. They come in and they turn to us, because they�re actually looking for something. They head our way because they�re beginning to perceive a lack of something in their tradition. Most of them sort of begin with that sense of un-rootedness or disconnectedness from the history of the Church. This isn�t exhaustively true, but the vast majority of folks who begin the Canterbury Trail usually have begun with C S Lewis. There�s something deep and rich and mysterious that they love, but then they also begin to recognize that�s also foreign to their worship experience. And so they come in search of it. I talk to a lot of clergy who talk in terms of having to sort of fight this uphill battle and to sort of rest the old notions of Church and Sacrament or ordinance or whatever from the clamped fingers of these folks. That has never been my experience. Oftentimes I think what I�m actually seeing is clergy who are a little bit shy about presenting the fullness because they think they�re going to encounter that objection. McDermott: Huh. Interesting. Edgar: But for the most part the folks that I have encountered, I mean, they come in hands opened and are just eager to learn and to receive. McDermott: Mm hmm (Affirmative). Edgar: That�s been my experience. McDermott: Chip, what would you say, or what do you say, and I imagine you�ve counseled a lot of your fellow priests who are shy about this, and maybe they�ve been burned by some of their parishioners � what would you say to them to encourage them? What have you said to them to encourage them? Not to be so shy. Edgar: Teach. Don�t be afraid to sort of walk into the arena and say here�s who we are. I think it starts with the Church. I often begin a new members class telling the story of years ago we lived in Chicago. We took our puppy to a puppy obedience class that the kennel club put on. And I was pastoring a church and I�m part of this little kennel club for a short season, and I�m thinking man, the young woman who is leading this class and helping us come to terms with our puppies, she is doing a phenomenal job of creating a community and drawing people together and helping them in their lives. You know? And so I sort of describe the community and the common focus and all that sort of stuff of the puppy obedience class at the kennel club. I say, what�s different about that? I mean, how is it that that�s not the church and this is the church? What�s going on there? And the difference is not that they�re organized around puppies and we�re organized around our love for Jesus, but this is the place where the word is rightly preached and the sacraments are duly administered. Wherever you find the word rightly preached and the sacraments rightly administered you have the Church. So, that then opens the door to this conversation about both the sacraments, but also the sacramental nature of the Church. Word and sacraments are the way that we connect to Jesus. Jesus is our head. He is the head of the Church. The Church is His body. It�s not just the sort of Jesus version of a kennel club. And I just don�t find objection to that. People kind of intuitively get that. They�re ready to accept it. So, my starting point is with the nature of the Church. McDermott: Mm hmm (Affirmative). Right. Edgar: And that little, that silly story seems to help them perceive the difference between what they have understood the Church to be and this deeper, richer thing that they are in fact on a quest for. McDermott: Right. I want to get back to the subject of Church, but stop at this point and ask you about the priest himself. The priesthood. We�ve talked in this series about the Anglican priest being a shepherd, a watchman, a steward. And talked about the differences between priest and pastor; not that they don�t overlap, of course. Edgar: Yeah, they overlap a lot, I think. McDermott: But how do you see the difference between priest and pastor? Edgar: Well, I mean, I think pastor is a great, great word. Right? I mean, basically it�s the same word as shepherd. So, if shepherd, watchman, and steward is pastor, watchman, and steward � I think they�re basically synonymous. I like the word �pastor.� I don�t want to shy away from the word �pastor.� I also like the word �priest.� I don�t want to shy away from the word �priest.� Because I think there is a content to the notion of priest that on the one hand I don�t want to overplay, but I don�t want to underplay either. And that sort of sticks us into the muddy world of a kind of a functional view of the priesthood, versus ... the word ontology gets thrown around a lot ... I�m a little suspicious of that word, because I don�t think that most of the people that throw that word around have enough philosophical background to really be throwing the word around. But it does ... it�s a helpful word in that it points to a reality that ... I don�t know how to say it other than we kind of know to be true. That is that when you�re ordained you�re not just taking on an office or a job. But you are ... the language that we use that I think is helpful and important is we�re being moved into an order, a holy order; an ordering of the Church via the people who are called through the ministry of the laying on of hands. That movement into the order is ... I was going to say accomplished, but I don�t think that�s exactly the right word, but the language used there is an indelible mark. You do become something when you�re ordained. McDermott: So, what does that difference look like? The Presbyterian pastor down the street, he pastors and might do a suburb job of pastoring and you as an Anglican priest you pastor and I�m sure you do a suburb job of pastoring, but what would the difference be in pastoring, shepherding people, between the ways an Anglican priest does it and/or what goes on in an Anglican priest pastoring and say a Presbyterian pastor pastoring? Edgar: Well, at the risk of sounding heretical and I never want to sound heretical, but I always ... I have lots of friends who are Baptist ministers and Presbyterian ministers and Methodist ministers. One of the things I love to tell them is that they don�t actually inhabit pastoring the way that they think they do. They actually inhabit it like we say they do. The way I think of it is ordination is not ... the realities of ordination are not dependent upon whether you define them that way or not � they just are. For instance, a little old lady who goes to the First Baptist Church of whatever little town gets sick and she�s in the hospital and everybody in her Bible study or her Sunday school class or her social circle they visit her and bring her cookies and the Church is very present. But if the pastor doesn�t show up the Church has not visited her. Because the fact of the matter is that she knows that there�s an ontological, to use that word and again I�m not sure it�s the best word, but she knows that there is in fact something ontological going on in his ordination as a Baptist minister, whether he wants to talk about it or whether he likes it or not. And the Presbyterian knows that if he shows up to his son�s tee ball game in shorts and a t-shirt and somebody walks up to him and says, �Oh, pastor so-and-so,� they�re recognizing that his role is not just a functional role. He�s not just Pastor So-and-so when he is in a suit and tie with his Geneva gown on and preaching or whatever. So, I always go ... let�s face it, we all understand that when you are ordained in the ministry and life of the Church this ordering, this indelible mark happens; whether you like it or not. (laughs) Whether you want to talk about it or not. We�re just honest about it. We honor it in our tradition. We go, yeah, the Church can�t work without this reality being present. I don�t know if that�s ... I just think it is. And we go, yeah, it is � let�s just be honest about that. However you can get to ... there�s something much greater and much deeper than just a functional definition of this... Everybody knows that. McDermott: Is the Anglican priest�s mark that he receives at his ordination different from the one that the Baptist pastor receives? Edgar: It�s certainly different in the sense that it is acknowledged, respected, and I will say, what we haven�t talked about and you decide whether you want to get into or not, there is something very important about apostolic succession to me � in my understanding. That I think is important, it�s crucial, because of the New Testament. And so in that sense I certainly do think there�s a difference. McDermott: Right. Now, how about preaching? Is the Anglican homily different from, say, the Baptist sermon? Edgar: Yeah, so I think that preaching and teaching are really fundamentally different tasks. There�s obviously sort of a didactic element in any preaching, and if a teacher is a really good teacher, there�s going to be a kind of ... what�s the word ... a oratorical sort of element in teaching. Like you love sitting in a class where the material being presented has some sort of evident claim on you. I mean, that�s an exciting experience. McDermott: Yeah. Edgar: But I do think that as a rule protestant preaching, where the sermon is the focus of the gathering to worship, has moved well further over into the didactic side, and sort of fails to recognize and live out or honor the ... I think I�m using the word right, oratorical side, that is there is a claim on me here. And so I think that at its best preaching in the liturgical sacramental tradition is inviting the hearer to recognize the claim of the gospel on their heart, on their life, on their imagination, on their mind. And that is the claim that then welcomes them to the table. So, preaching plays, it seems to me, this important role in our tradition of opening the table anew and afresh and inviting the person who recognizes that this Word from the Lord is a Word that claims me. McDermott: So, it seems that what you�re saying, and I agree with you, that there�s a vital connection between the Anglican homily/sermon and the sacrament that typically follows. Edgar: Yes. McDermott: Whereas in most protestant churches there is no clear link either ontologically or rhetorically between the sermon and the ordinance or the sacrament, which typically takes place a lot less frequently anyway. Edgar: Yeah. So, Luther talks about word and sacrament as both being word and sort of the word being ... preaching being sort the verbal word and the sacrament being sort of dramatized pictured lived out word. McDermott: Mm hmm (Affirmative). Edgar: And I think that Lutheran idea influences Cranmer and sort of works its way ... and I think it�s fundamentally right. There was a season in my education where I was being taught that you have these two things � you have word and you have sacrament. And sort of the common way of saying, oh, the protestants are good at word and the Catholics are great at sacrament, but we Anglicans we are word and sacrament people. I would like to think that we�re word and sacrament people, but not because we�ve somehow got it right, but because word and sacrament belong together, they are together. McDermott: Right. Edgar: And so a really good liturgy and therefore a good sermon is a part of that togetherness between the written and preached word and the enacted and lived out word of the sacrament. McDermott: Hmm. Right. You already have brought up the word �ontology/ontological,� it�s a favorite word for us Anglicans, or at least some of us Anglicans. Edgar: Mm hmm (Affirmative). And it�s a bugaboo for other Anglicans. (laughs) McDermott: Yeah, it�s a bugaboo for others and I think you�re right, some people use it wrongly or are thinking they know what it means when they really don�t. So, let�s talk about it a little bit. The Anglican tradition talks about the Church being different ontologically from the world. The priest, as you mentioned, having an indelible sign � that�s something that changes his inner being, and of course ontology comes from ontos in the Greek, which means �to be,� or �being.� And we talk about the sacraments having the real presence of the body and blood of Christ. That�s something that really is there at the level of being and not just thinking. And bringing real change to the beings of believers. I mean, we talk about in the prayer book, in all the prayer books, baptismal regeneration is part of the liturgy of baptism. Even though not all Anglicans accept that, but most do, and it�s right there in the prayer book. So, something really happening through baptism. And the liturgy being animated ontologically by Christ. In other words, His being is really with us so that we truly are worshipping in the liturgy with the saints and the angels, particularly at the Eucharist. These are big concepts. These are difficult words. How should priests communicate these things to Anglicans? How do you communicate these things to your parishioners? Edgar: Yeah, so I think that the fundamental ontological change that occurs is the ontological change which occurs when a human being becomes a baptized being. And so I think sort of the fundamental ontological change is that change into Christian. So, Paul, if there�s anywhere that it seems to me that it�s kind of talked about most explicitly it�s Paul in Galatians, saying, �I�ve been crucified with Christ and I no long live, yet Christ lives in me.� And Paul, I think, is talking not about himself and his particular office there, but he�s talking about himself as a representative Christian. McDermott: Sure. Edgar: This is what occurs to us � a change happens. Where somehow Christ�s being inhabits my being and I�m transformed, I�m changed. I remember years ago ... and I think this is the right book, I mean, one of the reasons that I don�t have more letters behind my name is because I�m just terrible at references and citing and all that sort of stuff. But I think that it was reading John Paul II�s �Crossing the Threshold of Hope,� that some Italian reporter somehow convinced John Paul to let him ask a bunch of questions. McDermott: Yes. Edgar: And there�s this really delightful moment in there where the interviewer says, �I mean, come on, you�re the Pope. That�s gotta be awesome.� John Paul II says, �No, no. �Christian.� That�s awesome.� You know? Pope? Yeah, whatever. Christian. You know? And so like I said earlier, I don�t have any trouble at all with the notion that something really fundamental in being not just functional really happens. But I think the big distinction is between the Christian and the world. And then between the Christian and the priest is a slightly less ontological something or another. Again, I�m punching above my weight and I recognize that. But like if you follow the narrative of scripture the people of Israel are called out of Egypt to be a kingdom of priests, all of them. They get to Mount Sinai and God says, come on up here and visit with me. And there�s thunder and rumbling and everything. And the people all go, �Ohh, Moses why don�t you go up there and visit with him?� That�s the moment in which the priesthood, that notion of priesthood is introduced into the narrative � a separate order. Then you push on through the biblical narrative. You get to Peter in the New Testament saying once again we�re a kingdom of priests and you get to Revelation and there�s no more intersection ... I always say that I don�t know which jobs are going to be present in the new heavens and the new earth, but I know that my job won�t. There will not be priests in the new heavens and the new earth, because everyone will know the Lord. I have no need of anyone to ... right? That�s what we�re shooting towards. Because of that I�m a little bit hesitant to press the gas pedal to use the word �ontological� nature of priesthood as heavily as some people like to press the gas pedal there. Just because we�re disappearing, man. We are guaranteed job obsolescence. Absolutely guaranteed that. I don�t know that carpenters are, doctors maybe, probably, but us for sure. (laughs) At the same time there was this great moment in my ministry. This goes back several years. We were in Chicago. It was probably 2001 or 2002. A widow in my parish, an older woman � her sister had come to Glen Ellyn to visit and while she was there visiting had a pretty substantial heart attack. So, was taken to a hospital and was in the intensive care unit. My parishioner called me and said, �Father Edgar, would you please come and visit my sister. She�s not a parishioner of yours, but ...� I said, �Absolutely, I will.� I think that was on a Tuesday or a Wednesday morning. I had diocesan meetings in the city all day for two days. And I said, �I just have to ... I can�t get there today. I can�t get there tomorrow. But I promise you before Friday I will visit.� So, it�s Thursday night. It�s like February in Chicago. It was 10:30. I�m putting my pajamas on to get in bed and all of a sudden I remember that I�d made this promise that before Friday I�m going to visit this woman. McDermott: Whoa. Edgar: So, I start putting my clericals back on. And my wife, Beth, says, �What are you doing?� I said, �I made this promise. I�ve got to go visit this woman.� Unfortunately for me she was at Hinsdale Hospital, which was about a 35 minute drive from my house. So, I put on my clericals and I put on my big heavy wool black coat. I get into my car. I drive and by the time I get there it�s 11:30 almost, visiting hours way over. You know? But I�m thinking to myself as I�m going in there. Okay, I�ve been to this hospital before. I�ve been to the intensive care unit. I know where that little button on the door that I press and it will open the doors. And I know where the name board is. So, I can walk in, look up on the name board, I won�t have to talk to the nurse. I won�t have to fight with her about visiting hours, or whatever, you know? I�m just going to blow past the nurse�s station, go do my visit, and go home. So, I�m speed walking down the hallway. I look up, grab the name, I�m going past the desk. Just as I go past the nurse yells out, she goes, �Hey, what are you doing in here?� I turn to face her and she sees my collar and she says, �Oh, I�m sorry. I thought you were a man.� (laughter) McDermott: I thought you were a man. Edgar: I thought you were a man. So, I�m comfortable enough with this notion that yeah, something really does happen. But you read St. Thomas and there�s all this stuff about the angels are jealous of priests and stuff. Part of that sounds like the old boys club getting together and patting each other on the back and saying, �Aren�t we awesome because we have this thing that they don�t?� And I worry that the tables have been turned a bit, and that we need to be like John Paul II and go, you know what really matters is Christian. That ontological change where Christ via the Holy Spirit takes up ... His being takes my being. So, I don�t know if that�s helpful. I don�t know if that�s heretical. McDermott: No, no, no. Well, I mean, I agree with John Paul and with you, that the fundamental, ontological change is what happens to every Christian through baptism and faith. We are running out of time, and let me just close with this question, Father Chip. A good number of our listeners are aspiring priests or thinking about whether God is calling them to this vocation. What would you say to a person who is wondering, or person who is pretty sure God is calling them, but how do they prepare? What would you tell them? Edgar: In terms of preparation? McDermott: Well, say either preparation or anything about the priesthood that they should know as they consider this vocation. Edgar: Here�s where my mind just heads, and I hope it�s helpful and I hope it�s an answer to your question. And it may not be, but as you ask the question what I immediately think of is if you are called to this life, wow, you�re lucky. This is a wonderful, wonderful life. I love being a priest. I love being a parish priest. I love the fact that I�m in this position, in this place. God called me and put this indelible mark on me where in this fallen world, filled with hurting people, I get to bring the goodness of God and God�s grace to the people, and I get to bring the needs of the people before the throne of grace. For me that�s kind of the fundamental notion of priesthood. That we stand in that spot where we are kind of bringing God to God�s people and bringing God�s people to God in worship. In all the ways. All the counseling, preaching, teaching, celebrating the Eucharist. In all of that. That�s what we do. I couldn�t think of anything more wonderful to do. Over the years, I mean, I�ve watched as churches have chewed up and spit out friends of mine and people ... you know? But the advice I would give to any young clergyman, and I learned this the hard way, is that if the priest leads with love then you�re not going to have very many problems with your people. I�ve made the transition from one church to another enough times to know that when you walk in the door, really, virtually everybody who is there in the room, they want to love you. There�s not ... I don�t think there�s a person in the world that thinks, �Oh good, another priest I can hate and fight with.� You know? (laughter) They want to love their priest. I think we mess it up almost ... I would put the onus of responsibility on clergy most of the time. Not all the time. So, I�m not trying to say that there�s never been a priest who was really loving his people and doing a good job that some nasty person didn�t ... I�m not making that claim. But I also know that I spent a lot of years thinking that what really mattered in my vocation was my vision, my teaching, my whatever. And that what I learned over the years was that if I fundamentally loved the people that God had given me to pastor, for the most part, church life is going to be good. This has just been the greatest experience of my life, to be a priest in God�s church. So, a young person who is looking at ... I would say you�re in for a great ride, if you remember that way more important than your entrepreneurial leadership, your vision, whatever, is your love of God�s people. McDermott: Well, in this day, when all we seem to hear about are the problems of the Church and the problems and the scandals of prominent Christian leaders, that�s a wonderful way to end this podcast. The joy of being called to the priesthood and the ministry of the priesthood. Father Chip, thank you so much. Thank you all of our listeners. Tune into the next episode of Via Media. Announcer: You've been listening to Via Media with host Gerald McDermott, the director of The Institute of Anglican Study Studies at Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. The Institute of Anglican Studies trains men and women for Anglican ministry, and seeks to educate the public in the riches of the Anglican tradition. Beeson Divinity School is an interdenominational evangelical divinity school training men and women in the service of Jesus Christ. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of Via Media.