Via Media Podcast, Episode 43 Race and Covenant: Racial Supremacy and Covenantal Reconciliation Carol Swain April 23, 2020 Announcer: The Institute of Anglican Studies at Beeson Divinity School welcomes you to Via Media, a podcast exploring the religious and theological worlds from an Anglican perspective. Here is your host Gerald McDermott. McDermott: Welcome to Via Media. Today we have a special guest, Carol Swain. The former professor of Political Science and Law at Vanderbilt University. She is the author of an important and striking chapter in the forthcoming book, �Race and Covenant,� that I edited, Gerald McDermott, it�s coming out with Acton Books in June 2020. Maybe by the time you�re hearing this it already has come out in June of 2020. �Race and Covenant.� Carol Swain has a fascinating chapter in there titled, �Racial Supremacy and Covenantal Reconciliation.� Now, before I ask Carol ... By the way, Carol, welcome this morning to Via Media. Swain: Thank you so much. It�s my pleasure. McDermott: Carol, before I ask you your first question, I want to introduce you a bit more so our listeners to Via Media can know something about you. Carol Swain is the former professor of Political Science and Law at Vanderbilt University in Nashville. She�s the author of a good number of books. Her first was published with Harvard University Press in 1993, titled �Black Faces, Black Interests.� And it won an academic prize. In 1996 she published another book with University Press of America titled, �Race Versus Class: The Affirmative Action Debate.� Then in 2002, perhaps her most noted book with Cambridge University Press was title, �The New White Nationalism in America.� Then she edited after that two more books that were published by Cambridge University Press. Dr. Swain has been an advisor to the US Civil Rights Commission. So, I�m thrilled to have her. And as I said she wrote a chapter in this upcoming book, �Race and Covenant: Retrieving the Religious Roots of American Reconciliation.� Dr. Swain, your chapter is titled, �Racial Supremacy and Covenantal Reconciliation.� Now, you draw in part from the book I just mentioned that you published in 2002, the �New White Nationalism,� to argue that you know an awful lot about White nationalism and that there�s some of that today in 2020, but there are different problems with race today as well. You start the chapter with your own story that I find absolutely fascinating. Can you tell our listeners something about your background and how your background, growing up in Virginia, has influenced your views of race? Swain: I don�t know how much my background has influenced my views of race, but I can tell you that I have been thinking about race for a long time. And that first book that you mentioned, �Black Faces, Black Interests� is a representation of African Americans in Congress. That book won three national prizes and was cited by the US Supreme Court. I think that what that shows is that I was offering a perspective that was very different from what other people have out there on the issues of the day. With the �New White Nationalism,� when I wrote that book I was concerned about crimes that were taking place where people were going out and attacking other people because of the color of their skin. A lot of that seems to have been taking place in the late 1990s. But I just grew up not really focusing that much on race. Of course, the Civil Rights movement was taking place, but I never grew up feeling that I was disadvantaged because I was one of 12 children born in rural poverty. I never saw my race as a handicap in the way a lot of Black people have. I�ve seen America as a country of tremendous opportunity. McDermott: Right. Well, I was struck by the fact that in your first years you knew real poverty, so it wasn�t just a matter of race, it was also a matter of poverty. I mean, you write in your chapter that you had no indoor plumbing, your one parent was an alcoholic, and your other parent ... you grew up mostly with a stepfather. Swain: Right. He was very abusive. So, yes, I mean, that�s a part of my life that may be common to a lot of poor people. So, I would say that has given me empathy for all Americans that come from backgrounds that are disadvantaged. And that may be why my perspective on race is different, is that I would say that poverty and social class, that that played probably a greater impact on my immediate life than just focusing on my race. Despite the dysfunction in my family, I did not have family members who really spent a lot of time focusing on race and victimization. In fact, during the period when I was a child, my mother would not let her children take free lunches or free books from the schools. We didn�t take hand outs. So, she had that protestant work ethic, even though we were poor we didn�t take hand outs. McDermott: Whoa. That�s quite impressive. She has, perhaps you might want to say, the right kind of pride. Swain: Well, yes, but that went out the window in the 1970s after she moved to the city, which was Roanoke, Virginia, and once she got there she became ... she also separated from her husband but she got involved with welfare programs and food stamps and it sort of became a way of life. But during the time that I was at home, that was what I heard. My grandparents worked and my mother was a stay at home mom, because she has 12 kids. She was always pregnant with somebody. McDermott: (laughs) Well, after you tell readers in the beginning of your chapter a little bit about your background, then you go into a little sketch of history of slavery in America. And the ways that slavery, here in this country, demonstrated natural human prejudices. Then you make the striking claim that racism is supported by neither the Bible, which some would debate, nor science, which others would debate. Can you explain that statement? Swain: Well, first of all, I don�t know if you know that I am part of a group called The 1776 Group that was formed basically because of the New York Times 1619 Project, and that argues pretty much that America was racist to the core. In my chapter I point out that in 1619 when the first Blacks came to American in bondage, they were indentured servants. So, after seven years they were released. Many of those Blacks became the backbone of free Blacks in America. They became the most prosperous Blacks, and that freedom for people that were indentured servants, that last for about 40 years, and so the story of slavery in America is not as straightforward as its been portrayed today. And I think that needs to be understood by more people than understand it right now. McDermott: Right. No, I was familiar with the fact that your part of the New 1776 Project that actually was started by another one of the authors of the chapters in this book, �Race and Covenant,� Robert Woodson. Swain: Yes, and then as far as the other parts of your question, you asked me ... McDermott: Yeah, scripture, the Bible. Swain: Yes, I mean, the part of the Bible ... slavery is not unique to America. McDermott: Right. Swain: Going back to biblical days, yes, there have always been slaves. So, that�s not something that is unique. What�s unique about America is that we had that Emancipation Proclamation. We got rid of slavery. So, I think that is something that is to America�s credit. But in the Bible it talks about God creating from one man all races of men. And when I look at race in America and creation in particular there�s always been variety. The Bible tells us that in Heaven there will be people from every nation, tribe, and tongue. So, the Bible does not support in any way racial supremacy of any group. McDermott: Right. You are one of several authors in this book who cite research from biologists and anthropologists, which has become something I think of a consensus today, that race as a biological phenomenon, as an anthropological phenomenon, is more of a myth than a fact. Swain: I mean, I guess people would say that it�s a social construct, and there clearly are some differences among and between groups of human beings. You see that in physical appearances and you may see that also in natural talents and gifts. I don�t think that�s something that ... I mean, that�s a reality, but that is not something that can be used as a basis to argue for any type of racial supremacy. I believe the Human Genome Project and its mapping shows that there�s no distinctive races, there�s one human race. McDermott: Mm hmm (Affirmative). Now, Carol, the dominant narrative in so many quarters is that Blacks cannot prosper today, because of the history of slavery, as the narrative goes, has left a systemic residue - and that adjective �systemic� is used so frequently these days � that slavery has left a residue that is systemic all throughout American life today. In your chapter you question the truth of that, and the value of it. Can you explain why you believe this is not true? And why you believe this in fact does harm? Swain: I think that there�s plenty of success stories that come out of that period of slavery. We�re all familiar with Frederick Douglas, with Booker T. Washington, George Washington, Carver, Madame Walker � there�s a long list of people, including some that I had never heard of until recently, who started their lives and ended up millionaires. Madame Walker was one of those. Blacks, at one time, the period after slavery, I mean, they had extraordinary accomplishments and in parts of the country where there was not Jim Crowe racism against Blacks, you had Blacks going to college and graduating from colleges that didn�t practice discrimination. And many of the Blacks� successes occurred before the 1960s Civil Rights movement and part of the Civil Rights movement was to end the racial discrimination, but Blacks were having extraordinary accomplishments under the most oppressive conditions. So, now today you have people saying that Black problems are the result of slavery. If that were the case, you would have seen Black failure in the early 20th century. You would have seen a different pattern, I believe. I think that what explains Black success and failure and also for other groups, too, is the attitude you have towards the world. If you believe that everything is stacked against you that�s going to affect how hard you apply yourself. And in America I think it has been and remains a country of tremendous opportunities, but you have to put forth some effort to take advantage of what the nation has to offer. The messages we�re sending young people today is that you cannot be successful, that there are all these roadblocks, and these roadblocks are put in place because of the color of your skin, and it goes back to slavery, and so if you are a single mother, if you are a gangster, or whatever your situation ... you live in poverty � all of that is traceable to slavery as opposed to your individual decisions of how hard you apply yourself. McDermott: So, are the roadblocks not there? Are they elusory? Swain: Well, I mean, there are some people that come from disadvantaged backgrounds, regardless of race they have to work harder. But I believe that there are plenty of people, and I�ve seen this in my own life, who are able and willing to offer helping hands, and so there are plenty of people that are cheering on those from disadvantaged backgrounds, but I think that the social class is probably a greater factor than skin color. And for myself, I can say that for every time I may have been disadvantaged because of my skin color, I think my skin color benefitted me, too, because I was seen as a hard working bright individual doors opened up for me that would not have opened up for a White person with a similar background. McDermott: Hmm. Now, Carol, in your chapter you write about identity politics in our universities where you have taught for many years, both at Princeton and at Vanderbilt. What does this approach that you describe as identity politics in the university classroom � what does this approach teach students? Swain: Well, first of all, it separates, it divides rather than unites. And it causes them to focus on their group as opposed to what benefits everyone as a whole. And with the universities we see the products of it in the separate Black studies, Afro American studies, women�s studies, gay studies, Latino studies ... all of those different programs takes away from the true education of students. And it teaches people to see themselves as victims. I think it�s very destructive because it teaches victimhood. And it encourages young people to always be on the lookout for an offense. And the offenses, we have heard of the concept of micro aggression � that�s almost like a small imagined sleight. It�s a micro aggression. It�s not a direct instance of racism or anything that you can put your finger on, it�s almost like something you suspect. And so it�s destructive because it takes away from the learning environment and it doesn�t allow students to learn from each other. It causes professors to tip toe around issues and it kills the learning environment for everyone. McDermott: So, professors are tip toeing about topics and issues that really need to be talked about, that does seem to ... and I can, I�ve taught in the college and university for most of my adult life � that does inhibit true education, which ought to be about talking about the most important issues from different perspectives and not just one. Swain: And it also has trickled down to Christian institutions, whether we�re talking about colleges, universities, or secondary schools. The identity politics environment. And to me that�s just totally antithetical to what the Bible encourages when it comes to how we are to treat one another. McDermott: Can you enlarge upon that? What does the Bible ... how does this conflict with what the Bible teaches about how we ought to treat one another? Swain: Well, I mean, I think Christians are supposed to have their identity in Christ, and if they�re being told that they should focus on their race, ethnicity, sexual orientation that�s part of the environment of Christian schools today, there�s no biblical basis for them putting their heart, soul, and spirit into those identities as opposed to what Christ has taught us. So, it has no place at a Christian institution, because I believe Christian institutions should be teaching the rest of the world how we can get along on earth. And when they follow the secular pattern of identity politics then that�s very problematic. As I see it. McDermott: Back to that book you wrote on White supremacy that was celebrated close to 20 years ago. Are there White supremacy groups today? Swain: I can tell you that book was not exactly celebrated. My first book was celebrated. That book, it got attention by some media, but it was not welcomed by the world. I was accused of being sensationalist. The book, they said, was apocalyptic. There was all sorts of attacks from academia because of that book. But that book argued that there was a new kind of White nationalism that was not White supremacy or the KKK or neo Nazis or the stereotypes, but that there was a new kind of White leader that was pretty much using social science data, FBI statistics, just various forms of data, and also the Constitution, to argue that Whites were being discriminated against, that there was no one standing up for Whites. And some of the members of this new White nationalism they were intellectuals that argued that the racists could not get along and that White people needed leaders like Black people. What was controversial about the book was that I commissioned, or I had a White researcher to interview leaders of some of the leading White rights, White nationalist groups in America at that time. And it was not so well received by the world. McDermott: What was the fundamental problem that the academy had with that book, Carol? Swain: Well, because I think at the time they wanted to believe that we were, that race relations were better than they were. And the warning that I gave at the end of the book was that we needed to move away from identity politics towards the American national identity, and I pointed out that Blacks, as well as Whites, bore some responsibility for the race situation in America. I think that what they found most controversial was that I was not just condemning White people, but I was saying pretty much that we were all in this together and that the language of multiculturalism and identity politics had backfired, because that language provided a basis for White identity and that if we didn�t move away from the identity politics then White interests and White consciousness would be the next stage of identity politics in America. So, I laid it all out. So, the book is recognized now as being prophetic, but when it first was published I took a lot of heat for that. And none of the major newspapers reviewed the book. A lot of lesser newspapers did. TIME magazine reviewed it. I could say the style editor of the New York Times ran something on it, but it was not in the New York Times book review or any of those major book reviews. McDermott: You were challenging multiculturalism at a time when the academy was celebrating multiculturalism. You were taking approaches to it that question the value of the emerging identity politics and so it�s no wonder that the academy had problems with it. You say you focused on White nationalism, not White supremacy. Are there groups today that are preaching racial supremacy, racial superiority? Swain: I think if you dig deep enough you can find some KKK members. At the time I was doing my research there were fewer than 4,000 in America and we know that our population is 327 million and so I think you will always have people groups or individuals that believe it. But I think that you also have members of other groups that are also preaching racial supremacy. McDermott: Like what sorts of other groups? Swain: The Nation of Islam and there are various groups, off the top of the head I can�t think of all the leftist groups that are doing it, but I think that we have always had and we will continue to have individuals and groups that will preach superiority. McDermott: Is this what you were talking about in your chapter as the new racism? Swain: I think that what has happened now with the diversity and inclusion industry is that what has taken place is that they have sort of defined everything so that if you are considered a disadvantaged group, whether it�s a racial ethnic minority or a gender minority, homosexual or transgender, these groups are recorded superiority. So, they are able to express in the area of race things that would be truly racist if you were to substitute White for Black or Black for White. So, I think there�s a new racism that has taken place today where it is seen as acceptable to make disparaging comments towards Whites, regardless of their age, even children, that would not be acceptable if they were any other racial ethnic group. So, I think that part of the new racism is that Whites have become the targets. McDermott: Carol, I�m sure you�re familiar with what has become almost dominant in the academy, and even in Christian theology, the so-called theology of whiteness. The notion of whiteness, which has now trickled down to common culture. Can you define for our audience what is meant by whiteness and what you think of this new notion? Swain: Well, it usually encompasses this whole idea of White privilege that White people have been ... that most of the problems of the world can be traced to White people. And that they are born racist, they�re racist to the core, and people who want to change the society say that you have to destroy whiteness first. So, a lot of what takes place in the classroom or various places is an effort to make or sensitize White people to the evils that they have committed in the world. And there�s a shaming that takes place that I believe is totally unacceptable, because I believe that in our society or the way things should be, if it�s wrong to shame people of color and disparage them because they happen to be born into a particular racial ethnic group, then it�s also wrong to do the same thing to White people. Because none of us get to choose our race, our parents, our gender, I mean, we can get a sex change operation, but we are born either male or female. McDermott: Many are saying today that America seems to be more racially divided than in any time in recent memory. This despite the fact that this majority nation twice elected a Black president. Carol, how do you explain this new height of racial tension? Swain: I think that there is ... of course it�s political, but I think that there�s a deliberate effort to use race to divide people. And if you present to someone who is preaching about how racist America is, the fact that you�ve had a Black President and two or three Attorney Generals that were Black, they would immediately begin to discount that, and that�s because there is value to them of being able to constantly bring up race, bring up slavery, and not acknowledge the progress that we have made as a nation. McDermott: What�s the way forward, Dr. Swain, for our nation? Swain: Well, I think the way forward is to, for one thing, I believe that there are many White people that are pretty much just giving up their voice. And I think that we cannot have any kind of racial reconciliation or conversation unless both sides are allowed to speak, or all sides are allowed to speak. So, that�s one of the first things that we need to do. Then I think that knowledge is power. And that parents and educators and people that are in these situations where political correctness and the narratives of the left, where they�re dominating, they have to speak up and begin to push back. Right now, only one side gets heard in most conversations, and I think that�s totally unacceptable. The way you change that is by attacking it head-on or confronting it head-on, and I think that we need to do more of that. That�s part of what the 1776 Unites Group will be doing, is that we will be writing essays and books that really focuses on some of the myths and mis-truths that are out there about race, race relations, Black people, and slavery. I think to the extent that we can get the truth out there that we will reach more and more people, because it�s not just Black people and Brown people that are deceived, a lot of White people are deceived about history. McDermott: Carol Swain�s chapter is entitled, �Racial Supremacy and Covenantal Reconciliation,� in the new book that is coming out in June, titled, �Race and Covenant: Recovering the Religious Roots of American Reconciliation.� Thank you, Dr. Swain, for being on Via Media. Swain: Thank you so much for the interview. McDermott: And thank you to all of our listeners. I need to announce that this is our last podcast of the Spring 2020 season. I should also say that I am retiring from Beeson in a few days. And my successor will probably take this up next year in the new school year, 2020-2021. I will probably do a separate broadcast from Virginia, where I am moving to with my wife. And those of you who might be interested can keep your eyes and ears open for that. Thanks so much for being with us. I want to thank, Chase Edgar, who is the man behind the scenes. My ace student assistant, taking care of all the technology, and coming up with many good ideas; successor to Jarrod Hill, my ace student assistant for the first few years of this podcast, and in fact, the man who thought of the podcast and encouraged me to start it. And I want to thank Beeson Divinity School for helping me in so many ways with this podcast, and sponsoring the podcast. And Kristen Padilla, our superb publicist at Beeson for helping with each one of these podcasts, and our former Dean, the founding Dean of Beeson, Timothy George, for permitting us to do the podcast. And our current Dean, Doug Sweeney. Thanks to all of these folks and especially to you in the audience for telling others about the Via Media and for listening yourselves. Announcer: You've been listening to Via Media with host Gerald McDermott, the director of The Institute of Anglican Study Studies at Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. The Institute of Anglican Studies trains men and women for Anglican ministry, and seeks to educate the public in the riches of the Anglican tradition. Beeson Divinity School is an interdenominational evangelical divinity school training men and women in the service of Jesus Christ. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of Via Media.