Beeson Podcast, Episode #639 Rev. Russ Levenson Jan. 31, 2023 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I am your host, Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. You are in for a real treat today as we talk to a Beeson grad has recently published a book on the lives and the faith of his former parishioners, President George H. W. and Barbara Bush. What is it like to pastor a president? How do you prepare to preach a funeral that you know will be watched by millions of people all around the world? What was the Bush’s faith like? We’ll explore all of these questions and more. But first, if you or someone you know is thinking about seminary, we would love to host you during our next preview day on February 10th. This day is carefully designed for prospective students. They’ll hear from faculty, students, and admissions staff, they’ll spend some time with me, and all of us will do our best to answer questions and give our guests a glimpse of this beloved community we call Beeson. Learn more and register at www.BeesonDivinity.com/previewday. All right, Kristen, who do we have on the show with us today? >>Kristen Padilla: Thanks, Doug. We have the Reverend Dr. Russell Levenson. Dr. Levenson lives in Houston, Texas with his wife, Laura, where he serves as the Rector of St. Martin’s Episcopal Church. He’s been there since 2007. With nearly 10,000 members, St. Martin’s is the largest Episcopal Church in North America. Levenson co-officiated and offered a homily at the state funeral for President George H. W. Bush in Washington, D.C. and in Houston and he officiated and preached at the funeral for First Lady, Barbara Bush in Houston. This is the church of the President and Mrs. Bush and so we look forward to talking with our guest today about them. But I want to say, first, before I go any further that he’s also a Beeson graduate. And so we’re proud to claim him as one of our own. So, welcome to the Beeson Podcast. >>Levenson: Great to be here. And I would certainly commend the invitation to take advantage of Preview Day that you’re offering here. That’s one of the ways I snuck in the door and had three wonderful years here when I was getting my DMIN. >>Kristen Padilla: Wonderful. Well, thank you. You heard it! Come to Preview Day, please. We’re delighted to have you on the podcast. We have a lot to talk about but before we do we always like to begin getting to know our guests a little bit more personally. More than what I read at the beginning. So, I wonder if you can tell us about your roots. Where are you from? How did you come to faith in Jesus Christ? >>Levenson: Well, I grew up here in Birmingham and I went to high school here, ended up going to college at Birmingham Southern College out in the west part of Birmingham. But as a young man I grew up in the Episcopal Church. I grew up at St. Luke’s Episcopal Church, not too far from the Beeson and Samford campus. Was baptized there and confirmed there. I think it’s fair to say during those years church attendance was really important to our family, to my parents, to make sure we were in the door. But I don’t think my faith came to fruition until my late teen years. I’m much older than the people sitting around the table here. But I grew up in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s what we at the time and I think history calls the “Jesus Movement.” And groups like Young Life and Fellowship of Christian Athletes, Campus Crusade – all of those were beginning to grow and flourish. And I encountered a lot of Christians who talked about their faith in a way in which I was not experiencing it. I felt like I was a Christian, I think the good Lord was at work in me in some way, and I do think we come to the Lord in all kinds of ways. But I’m kind of Type A so I felt like the Lord knew I needed more than just kind of a slow journey in. And so late in my teens I was actually having a conversation with a campus minister who happened to be Baptist at the time. His last name was Carpenter, which I thought was providential. And I was asking lots of questions about scripture one day, one after the other. And he said, “You know, Russ, we can do that all day. The real question is have you invited Christ into your life as your Lord and Savior?” And I said, well, I’m baptized, I’m confirmed. And he said, “Well, I think that’s a question you need to think about. If you want that personal relationship that you’re talking about, that you see in the lives of others, that begins with an invitation.” And so, I went home that day, as a young teen, or later in my teen years in the late ‘70s and got down on my knees one night, closed the door, nobody was there, prayed and gave my life to the Lord in a way in which I thought ... theologically I didn’t have the linguistics for it all, but I knew what I was doing. I can’t even tell you what I prayed. At the time I think I expected an angel or a light or music or whatever. And I often tell this story, even again [inaudible 00:05:39], and I felt nothing. Got up went to bed. And I got up the next morning and what I’ve said is from that day forward I’ve never not known the presence of Jesus Christ in my life. There have been days when he felt very far away, days when he felt as close as the person in the pew next to me, but since that day I’ve never not known the presence ... and that really was the beginning of my Christian life. Now at that point I did not intend to go into ministry. I grew up in a retail family. We have a big business here in Birmingham. But the more I got involved in the church the more I was drawn to the work and the ministry and fortunately married a woman who was very supportive of exploring that journey. I didn’t go right into ministry right out of college. But began that exploration and about five years after other jobs in education and in ministry for two, which John Claypool who is known to the divinity school here of course, entered seminary and began the journey of ministry. >>Doug Sweeney: Of course, Russ, everybody knows you as the Rector of St. Martin’s, but you have pastored other churches as well. You just started talking a little bit about your sense of calling into pastoral ministry. Just for the sake of listeners maybe who are from our region or Episcopalian, can you give us a couple of minutes on how you knew God wanted you to be a pastor and what other churches you’ve served, maybe in the southern states as well? >>Levenson: Sure. I think one of the things I did, Doug, was begin ... once I felt like this was a call upon my life, I really, as do many, and of course I started to ask the Lord to close doors. I felt like doors were opening, but I said close the doors I’m not supposed to ... don’t lead me down, don’t let me walk into a place where I’m not supposed to be. And open the doors where I should be. And they were rarely the doors I thought I would be walking through. So, I started as a Chaplain at the University of [inaudible 00:07:45] Tennessee. I thought I was going to be there for several years. Then John Claypool called me back to Birmingham. Never thought I’d be able to work with John again. I worked with him before seminary. He called me back. And then actually I had just finished my DMIN here when I said to my wife, “You know, we’ve been at this church for four years or so and I’m not ready to go yet, but maybe at some point we’ll kind of listen to the Lord.” Within about two weeks after saying that out loud I think our Lord heard me and we had five letters from different places all over the country. Unsolicited. And we were, “We’re not ready to do it.” But it became clear and my very first call as an Assistant to a Rector, which is a senior pastor, was to Lafayette, Louisiana. A much smaller church than St. Martin’s. And I think we had myself, a part time organist, part time secretary, part time housekeeper. That was the church. But it was a great experience, learning experience. But my wife, Laura, was very much part of that process. As were our children. We had just finished the DMIN. We had three children. We left a place that was very comfortable to us into a place that was very different than Birmingham. Lafayette, Louisiana is very different. The beating heart of Cajun country. And it ended up being five remarkable years and then we were called to Pensacola, Florida. And I really thought I was going there to retire. Pensacola is a great place to live. You’re not far from the beach. And we had great ministry possibilities there. A larger staff, larger responsibilities. But my predecessor had been there 30 some odd years. So, I thought, well, this is where we’ll be. And then five years in we heard from St. Martin’s and long story short, again, we ended up at St. Martin’s. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve mentioned your DMIN a couple of times. Can you tell us about your experience at Beeson and what was the topic of your DMIN project? >>Levenson: Sure. So, I often tell people this because I had a great MDIV experience at Virginia Theological Seminary in the late ‘80s, early ‘90s. I was actually quite proud of its evangelical identity at the time. At the time John Stott was a preacher there. I think the seminary while I’m still a part of that family and I still am supportive of the seminary it’s different than when I was there. But I studied hard, as anybody does for their MDIV. When I came here I was a little overwhelmed by the assignment at first. And I remember one of the first classes I had was actually with Fisher Humphreys. And it was systematic theology. We were assigned 2,000 pages of reading before the first day of class. I remember thinking I don’t think I’ve ever had that challenge in all my years of being in my masters program. And so it was ten books, each about 200 pages, and he wanted all of them read and he wanted a book report on each one. Day one. And I got it done. That I think quite frankly, the way in which I engaged with Dr. Humphreys became a wonderful warm relationship which remains till today. He and I were in conversation last week. He ended up being my doctoral advisor and I ended up doing a project called Spiritual Formation in the Local Parish. Where I created a study group and I looked at essential elements of Christian theology and then Christian discipline. And I had I guess a study group of about 40 or 50 people who agreed to be part of the project over a period of 12 weeks. After we had done all of the academic work. And learned how to kind of foster that small group ministry in the church. And to some degree I’ve used it in different places where I’ve been. >>Doug Sweeney: All right, we want our listeners to know all about your book. That’s one of the reasons we got you in town and wanted to interview you. We’re very proud of our alum who has not only played a very significant pastoral ministry role in the lives of a President and a First Lady of the United States, but you’ve got a great new book talking about their faith and the way they live their faith out, witness to dignity. Can you start out by telling us – how does a book like this come to be? Surely you’ve got to get people’s permissions to do this kind of thing. Did the other members of the Bush family play a role? Tell us about the inception of the book. >>Levenson: Sure. I did not know how our relationship with the Bush’s, with the President and Bar, and that was her request that we call her Bar or Barbara, but not Mrs. Bush, I always called the President “Mr. President” but didn’t know how close we would be. I didn’t know how active they would be in the church. And at first they seemed to be very active. And every now and then I would relay a story ... When we went out to dinner with them, we would go to their home, we would go to an event in Houston with them, we would go to a baseball game, and they brought their pastor and his wife along. And people said, “Were you writing these stories down?” And I said, “Well, no, because I don’t know ... other than these are great memories.” But as time marched on, I began to witness not just our friendship grow but to see their faith and how much their faith, their Christian faith, their commitment to our Lord meant to them, and how much of it played a role in their life. Barbara used to say, “When all the crowds are gone and the dust is settled, the only thing that remains are family, friends, and faith.” And I think we were able to be with them in those last 11.5 years when all the crowds did go. When their health began to go. When their ability to get out began to go. But they kindly, and I say it with great humility, invited my wife or I to be in those moments, such that we saw at the end, yeah, the only thing that mattered were those essential relationships. And of course that one with our Lord. And so as I read, and I’ve read lots of things about the Bushes, as many people have. But didn’t really read anything about their faith. And so probably a year or two after their death I began to fiddle with the idea a little bit. But they were very self effacing. They didn’t like the spotlight. And so the thing I struggled with the most was how do you write the story from the perspective of their pastor without using personal pronouns? (laughs) And I say that early on in the book. I finally say, “If you’re reading this book, I’m not trying to say me, my, and I for any particular reason to say, boy, I got to do these neat things because I was the President’s Pastor.” But I did get to do neat things because of that. And so I finally put that to the grown children, all of them. And i said, this is what I’m thinking about doing. My biggest challenge is how do I do this without ... keeping the spotlight where i want it, which is your parents and their faith? And they all were very supportive. They said, “We want to see what you write when it’s done.” And then Jeb Bush, who wrote the foreword for the book, finally is the one who said, “Well, of course, you have to tell it from your perspective, that’s the only way you can tell it.” So, that’s kind of how I got the title, “Witness to Dignity.” And I say in the beginning of the book, after I got myself “this is me” but I say, “What I’m going to do now for the rest of the book is I’m standing in the witness box and I’m going to give you a testimony about what I was able to witness over these years.” And so again I’m one who tends to sit down and write in one batch. When I did my doctoral program here at Beeson I moved out of the house of my wife and three children, as much as I love them, and I moved into my parents’ house where I could have a house and I wrote my dissertation in four weeks. And then I wrote this book in about four weeks, two days. And I just sat down and plugged it out. And then I sent it to all of the living children for their review. And I had one correction and everybody else was very happy with it. And then the editor went to town. It was way too long, 500 and some odd pages. And now it’s about 320 I think. But it was a great process. And really enabled me to re-live moments where again it spoke to me about their faith. There were some moments where I would finish a chapter or a story where I would be in tears because I do miss them. They became friends. And really wonderful generous people. And so it’s a living testimony and it was a work of love and admiration. >>Kristen Padilla: You mentioned that Barbara wanted you to call her “Bar” or “Barbara.” And they didn’t like the spotlight. And I hope it’s okay, Doug, for me to share ... you’ve heard it, but one of my special childhood memories was we had to write a letter to someone famous. And this is the time when George H. W. Bush was President. And I decided to write the First Lady. And I was the only child in my class that received a letter back from the person that they wrote. And I received a letter back from Barbara Bush. It was all typed out on letterhead, but it had her signature with a little “PS” note written. And we framed it and it was really near and dear to me. And so hearing you talk about her and both of them really and what I read in your book, I just have taken away that you had a very loving relationship. I think I remember reading that they would say, “I love you.” And you would say, “I love you.” So, can you ... and I want our readers to read the book and get the full story, but can you give us just a little window into how that relationship really blossomed and became one of such great fondness and love? >>Levenson: I think I was surprised to, again ... but they got ill right after we got there. This wasn’t one of their serious bouts but they were in the hospital. I went to the hospital, like you do. I think that almost immediately they saw that I was going to be their pastor. And then they did invite us to dinner early on and again, as I’ve said in the book, there was several times I went, “Why am I here?” But the more their health ... Early in the relationship, if we were invited to the house, there used to be an aide or someone in the secret service would call and it got closer it would be Barbara would call. And say, “Do you all want to come over for lunch?” Or, “We’re going to a play, do you want to go?” I think they just got to know us and we got to know them. But they were very openly affectionate with each other. One of the things the President would say is, “Love you more.” You’d say, “I love you.” He’d say, “I love you more.” And that was the last thing he said to me in the last conversation we had. They again were very affectionate, very authentic. I think the experience you had was the experience many people have. Everybody I know who have had the opportunity to meet the President or Barbara, I’ll often say you didn’t just meet ... you have a story. Everybody, there’s a story that goes with it. Because they both were letter writers. In fact, I should say that was one of the reasons I wrote the book, too. Because we were just finishing up a large building project at St. Martin’s. And I came across reams of letters, personal letters, emails, things like that. I thought, do we just throw these away? Or do I put them somewhere? And so that was part of what came. But we have so many letters. Some are fun letters. I think their humor ... I think I have a pretty good sense of humor. They have a pretty good sense of humor. And one of the stories that you might have read in the book is we’re over at the President’s house one day. Barbara and the President had these two dogs, Mini and Bebe. Bebe was a little multi poo and was very protective of Barbara and the President. And Bebe bit everybody and bit secret service, bit visitors, bit me one time. The first bite for us was one day we were leaving and my wife and I had gone to the house, we brought communion, weren’t feeling well, so we had a visit over at the house, prayed together, and my wife leaned over to kiss ... which was common, we’d give them a kiss on the cheek and say “goodbye, have a good day.” So, she leans over to kiss the President goodbye and Bebe reaches out and bites my wife on the leg. And Barbara was, “Oh, I’m horrified. I can’t believe that happened. I’ve got to see your leg.” And my wife had a pantsuit on and she said, “No, I’m fine.” But Barbara pressed it until we got to the door and pulled up her leg, blood was going down the side of her leg. And Barbara said, “Oh, I just feel so bad about it.” Well, the next day ... it wasn’t a wound-wound, but it was a wound. The next day my wife is coming back from a walk and she sees somebody walking away from our front door and getting in the car and driving away. She goes up to the door and there’s a huge orchid with a personal note in Barbara’s handwriting. It says, “Dear Laura, I’m so sorry about the bite. You just looked good enough to eat. Love, Bebe.” (laughter) We kept that note. That’s another thing that people in Houston, what we got to see ... yes, they had secret service care, but you would see Barbara at Walgreens. You’d see them at the baseball and they’d stop in and talk ... they were very open, warm, and generous. But that love takes on a special quality when you’re praying with people. There were a few times we thought they were near death early on. And you go through that with somebody as a pastor and that love becomes authentic. >>Doug Sweeney: Not many of us listening to this recording right now have had the privilege of an up-close and personal relationship with the Bushes. We all know they professed faith in Christ, but you got to see it in a way that our listeners, at least most of them, haven’t gotten to see it. Can you tell us a few stories and give us a better feel for what was their Christian commitment like? What was their Christian faith, just sort of their every day walk with God like? >>Levenson: I think this is important to say. We all have watched politicians and people in the public eye who grab onto faith and use it to further their own ambitions. And from what I know, experienced, and read, I’ve witnessed, again, they never did that. We kind of, when I say they didn’t wear their faith on their sleeve, I don’t mean they weren’t demonstrative in it. I mean, they were unapologetic about who they were. But you never saw them kind of use it for any reason other than to be faithful to it. I think they were often used by their faith to make a difference. So, I do believe that when ... and a story that I wasn’t present for, though I was in DC from ’89 to ’92, so I was there during those crucial years doing my graduate work. So, I could witness from afar. And I had friends who worked in the Bush White House who said whenever he had an important decision to make he would call all members of the staff, whether you open letters or you were a secretary, to come and pray. To help me, I’ve got a make a big decision. Either they would do that in the White House or they would go across the street to St. John’s Lafayette. And then when he made the decision to go into Iraq to push Iraq out of Kuwait he studied Augustine’s Just War Theory. That was not just a political decision, a military decision, it was something that he thought through and prayed through, and then made that decision. But on a personal level, what we began to see is how much they did seem to appreciate their church. They were in church every week. If they were not ill or traveling they were in church. Even up to the end. And I think one of the things, one of the lessons I learned by watching them is as their health issues began to grow, it didn’t keep them from coming and sitting in the pew and staying till the end. They didn’t get up and leave. And the President, for instance, went from walking upright to walking with a cane, to walking with a walker, to being in a wheelchair. But he came as long as he could. And when he couldn’t come, then they would want Russ and my wife to come to the house and pray and be with them. Long seasons of sitting with them at the hospital and long seasons of prayer. But it was just part of who they were. And a great example of that is one day I was over visiting with Barbara. And she was baptized but she was never confirmed, what we call kind of that adult decision as an Episcopalian. When you affirm your faith. She looked at me one day ... we were talking about something and she goes, “You know I belive, right?” And I said, “Absolutely! Of course I know you believe, Barbara.” She goes, “Well, maybe I need to be confirmed.” That’s a sacramental act, you don’t have to do that, but if that’s something you want to do ... “Do you think I have to take a class?” I just went ... (laughs) And we went through all of this but she wanted to make that affirmation in her late 80’s at the time. And so we did that in a private service, which was very meaningful. And then one day after the President had a real bad bout, it was 2012, I really thought ... we thought we were going to lose him, but he came back in 2012. And he and I were alone at the house talking about a number of things. And then he brought up Heaven. And he said, “What do you think Heaven is like?” And I talk about this in the book. We talked a little bit about Heaven. And I said, “I think there’s a lot we don’t know but we Christians believe there is a Heaven, of course.” And he said, “Well, yes, but I just wonder what it’s like. Do you think I’ll see Robin there?” (his deceased daughter) And i said, “I think the scriptures in our faith testify to the fact that, yes, you will see your daughter there.” And he said, “Well, how old do you think she’ll be?” (laughs) And I said, “Well, Mr. President, that I don’t know. That’s one I don’t know the answer to.” But what struck me there, Doug, was that he never said, “Is there a Heaven?” Or, “Do you think I’m going to make it?” And particularly in the end, lots of conversations about Heaven. And the last day of his life, I was with both he and Barbara when they passed away. But his good friend Jim Baker who is an active member of St. Martin’s as well, Jim Baker came in to see the President that morning and the President said, “Good morning, Bake.” He called him “Bake.” Secretary Baker would call him “Hefe.” “Good morning, Hefe.” And the President said, “Where are we going today, Bake?” And Jim Baker said, “Mr. President, we’re going to Heaven today.” And the President said, “Well, good, ‘cause that’s where I want to go.” It wasn’t something that ... it seemed to come naturally to them. I think it’s because they were steeped in it and they worshipped regularly, prayed regularly, read the scriptures, and believed. >>Kristen Padilla: You officiated both of their funerals. And as Doug mentioned in the intro, you knew that these funerals would be very well attended, watched by millions. What was that experience like to plan the services for a First Lady and President? How did you prepare before the Lord your heart sermons for both of them? Especially hearing about your friendship and your love for them? I know that you were probably deeply affected by their deaths as well. So, I wonder if you could share a little bit about that experience? >>Levenson: Yeah, I mean, it was a huge responsibility. It started almost the day I got to St. Martin’s. Because a state funeral involves so many moving pieces. The state funeral is the one in DC. But I didn’t know how much even I would be involved in that. But shortly after it became very clear they wanted simple, Episcopal funerals, although with the exception of who came and who sang and who was ... you know. But the liturgy was traditional and it came right from our prayer book. And that’s what they wanted. So, we began to slowly choose the music together, the scriptures together. I would recommend. And there was never really any kind of back and forth. They pretty much trusted me. I did want Amazing Grace at Barbara’s funeral. I felt that was a great ... and she kind of pushed back. “Oh, everybody sings that.” I said, “But you know, Barbara, everybody will know that and everybody will sing that.” But we realized it as I think funerals are, it was really an authentically evangelical opportunity. And I was never going to step away from the responsibility to proclaim our faith. And I learned early on from John Claypool that ... and I do believe this personally, after 30 years of ministry, people in the pews have good antenna. And if you’re not authentic they know. And John gave me permission very early in my ministry, because I was working with John, he was known as a tremendous preacher, a great preacher. We were going in one morning for the first sermon. I was his assistant. My first sermon. And he said, “You know? Just be yourself.” And he said, “You give them what you’ve prepared.” And I knew what he was telling me. “You don’t have to compete with me.” And he said, “Like any gift, you’ve gone an picked it out, some people like your gift, some people don’t like your gift, some people open it and are wowed by it.” And that really set things for me in place so that I knew my goal was ... I’m a real believer in 1 Corinthians 2:2, to really proclaim Christ. And I knew these funerals were opportunities to do that. In a generous way. Their faith was very generous. They have friends of all denominations. But they were also unapologetic about their Christian belief. And so I never really let them ... these people in the pews are people like you and me, despite ... they had different roles. I didn’t think about the cameras. I didn’t think about how many were watching or whatever. And I had two or three people really praying for me. And before I climbed into the pulpit in DC, I actually ... I think there was music being played or something. I went behind the pulpit and just knelt, just prayed that the Lord would empty me of myself, and fill me with Him, and let me do what I’m supposed to do. Michael Curry who is our presiding Bishop in the Episcopal Church grabbed me right before he went into the service and he said, “I need to pray for you.” And I appreciated that. He laid hands on me. And he said, “Amen. Now go preach the gospel.” And I had a lot of people saying that. But the President and Barbara made that easy because they lived it. All I had to do was tell the story that we believed. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. Levenson, thank you for giving us this time today. Sharing these wonderful stories from your own pastoral ministry with us. Kristen and I always end our interviews with guests by asking them what they are learning from God these days. So, we want to ask that of you as well. Just as a way of edifying our listeners with a concluding word. What’s the Lord doing in your life these days. What is he teaching you these days? >>Levenson: Wow, it is a great question. I recently wrote a piece for our parish newsletter about New Year’s resolutions. And I just turned 61. And I said one of the things I’m finding, the older I get the more I need to pray. I’m finding a deeper hunger and a deeper need to pray all the more. I think that is one thing I’m learning. I think I, like many of us, are a little heartsick by what’s going on in our world. I mean, I guess Christians across the ages have always had reasons to do that. I keep a little piece of paper, I actually have it right with me today that came from [inaudible 00:32:31] Birmingham, so 30 years ago. I have carried it with me this long. And it was a kid in the pew who wrote on one of the nametags, “I love Jesus and God so much.” And I thought, you know, that’s the goal of what we do. People desire to have that kind of relationship with our Lord. And I think they really do desire it. I think that is the only healing balm we can offer. And so I am of a denomination, but I am an a-denominationalist. (laughs) I’m a Christian who happens to be in the Episcopal house, but I think the deep, deep hunger of the world is still what it has always been – which is to know Christ in a personal way and have a family in which we can grow in that faith. So, I really think the essential thing that I continue to believe is more important than anything else that we do in this work; that your graduates do – is not proclaim a denomination, not proclaim an ecclesiastical structure, it is to proclaim Christ and invite people into relationship with Him. >>Doug Sweeney: Amen. We want that for our listeners as well. Listeners, thank you very much for tuning in. Remember, we love you. We’re praying for you. You have been listening to the Reverend Dr. Russ Levenson. He is the Rector of St. Martin’s Episcopal Church in Houston, Texas. And we are proud to say an alumnus of Beeson Divinity School. Thank you for joining us. Goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.