Beeson Podcast, Episode #638 Dr. Frank Thielman Jan. 24, 2023 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I am your host, Doug Sweeney, I am here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. This is the final week of our series on the topic of bible publishing with members of the Beeson family active in this work. We hope you’re catching a glimpse of the ways in which God continues to use this ministry all around the world, and of the ways in which he’s using Beeson people to do so. If you’re listening to this podcast on the day in which it has dropped, you’re listening on the day of our opening convocation of the spring term at Beeson. We have a wide array of events planned on campus this spring. We hope you’ll join us in the chapel at 11:00 for convocation. And then go online to see what else we have in store for you at www.BeesonDivinity.com/events. While you’re on the Beeson website, spend a minute or two browsing in our new audio store, where you can purchase Lay Academy courses, older Beeson classes, lectures, sermons, workshops, and more at www.BeesonDivinity.com/store. All right, Kristen, would you please introduce today’s guest and get us started? >>Kristen Padilla: I sure will. Hello, everyone. I’m glad to welcome today’s guest, Dr. Frank Thielman. Dr. Thielman is not a stranger to the Beeson Podcast. But he is professor of New Testament at Beeson. It’s been a while since we’ve had you on the show, I believe. So, we’re glad to have you back. He’s been a faculty member since 1989. He serves as the Presbyterian Chair of Divinity. He is the author of a number of books and commentaries, including ones on Romans, Ephesians, and Philippians; and he’s currently working on a book on Paul. So, welcome to the Beeson Podcast, Dr. Thielman. >>Dr. Thielman: Thank you Doug and Kristen. Thanks so much. It’s a delight to be here. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, we don’t want to talk to you about your books today, we’ll have to have you back on the show once your book on Paul comes out. We in particular want to have you on the show to talk about your work in bible translation. Now, we’ve had a couple of professors here at BEeson involved in that work. But you in partciular have served and continue to serve on the translation oversight committee for the ESV. And so as a way of introduction into today’s conversation, can you tell us how you became involved with this translation committee? >>Dr. Thielman: Sure. Back in 2010 or 2011, I can’t remember which, my colleague here at Beeson, Paul House, asked me if I would consider joining the translation oversight committee for the English Standard Version. They had had a committee member step away for other responsibilities and they wanted to add a member as well to the committee. And so I prayerfully considered it and talked to the folks at Crossway that publish the ESV, and decided it would be time very well spent. So, I had been on the translation oversight committee since 2010 or 2011. I can’t remember exactly which year. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. Thielman, let’s just dive right in and help our listners understand the more scholarly dimension of translating, publishing bibles. We’ve had a couple of other BEeson family members on this same podcast series who were on the publishing side of things. It’s exciting to have a scholar who is a translator himself and oversees translators on the show. Tell our listeners just a little bit about what do you have to have in mind and bear in mind just in terms of the philosophy of translating well when you go to translate the bible? >>Dr. Thielman: There are a lot of good translations of the bible out there. And most of them are the product of a particular philosophy or understanding about what translation should be and what it should look like. Usually people who are translators think in terms of translations that are either thought for thought translations, where you reaad a thought unit in the original language and then try to communicate what that thought unit is getting at, try to communicate that meaning in the receptor language, in our case English. So, that would be kind of a thought for thought approach. Another approach is what is sometimes called the essentially literal approach. Which tries to translate as much as possible the words in the original language with words in the receptor language, words in English that consistently represent what those original words were. That of course can’t always be done ebcause words just work in different ways in different languages. Languages are not codes. You can’t just sort of run them through a computer program and come out with the right answer as anybody that’s ever tried to run something through Google translate can maybe relate to. (laughs) They’re not codes. You don’t have ths sort of one for one correspondance between a word in an ancient language for example and a word in English. So, most translations are actually sort of on a spectrum. Somewhere between thought for thought translations, trying to understand thought units in the original language, and bringing those over into English. And on the other hand, the other end of the spectrum would be this essentially literal approach which tries to make words in the original language as, translate them as consistently as possible in the receptor language. The essentially literal translation approach has the advantage that you can often see patterns throughout the bible in the way particular words and concepts are used. A little bit more esasily than you can sometimes with what’s called the dynamic equivalence approach, the thought for thought approach. But there are lots of good translations out there, almost all of them are somewhere on a spectrum between these two poles. And often it just depends ... picking a translation just depends on the purpose for which you want to use it. If you’re putting the bible in the hands of a brand new Christian who has come out of a very secular environment, knows nohting about theological language and terms, then often the thought for thought approach works a bit better. But if you want to do intense bible study and really see the consistency of language and themes through the bible from cover to cover, the essentially literal approach tends to work better. >>Kristen Padilla: And so the ESV would fall where on that spectrum? >>Dr. Thielman: The ESV is more of an essentially literal translation. So, its translation philosophy is one that tries as much as possible to translate consistently words in the original language with the same or similar words in the English language. And that’s particularly true for theologically important words. And words that have a great importance in the history of Christianity. So that people can see how those terms and concepts are anchored in the bible. The Reformers knew the original languages amazingly well for the era in which they were working. Particularly the ones that worked with Hebrew. I mean, there were very few Hebrew tools (laughs) out there. It was hard to learn Hebrew in the 16th century and the 17th century. Yet they did. And they were quite good, actually, in their translating. And so it’s very helpful if you’re studying church history, systematic theology, and so on, it’s very helpful to be able to see in the bible where the terms that the Reformers used, where those terms come from. And I think the ESV really helps in that endeavor. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, you’ve mentioned that you serve on the translation oversight committee. What is the purpose of such a committee? >>Dr. Thielman: The translation oversight committee for the ESV is sort of a gatekeeper committee. So, its role is to receive questions about the translation, to think about those questions. The translation oversight committee recognizes that the English language changes and evolves. So, we want to think about ways in which we might be able to better express the original text in English. And occasionally the translation oversight committee has met to entertain revisions to the ESV. Fairly recently the ESV’s text has basically been locked into place so that our role now is more a role of protecting what we have and answering questions that people might have about the translation. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. Thielman, I wonder, you surely have been involved as a New Testament scholar trying to read other ancient materials, not just the bible, but extra biblical materials as well. And lots of our listeners will know about famous ancient writers: Homer, Plato, Aristotle, others ... When you go to translate the bible, is it the same job as translating Homer and Plato and Aristotle? Or is there something unique to bible translation that isn’t just the same as translating other ancient texts? >>Dr. Thielman: Well, there are similarities, of course, because the biblical text are ancient texts written in ancient languages that people used every day as their language. And so there are a lot of similarities between translating the bible as an ancient text and, say, translating Dante or the Odyssey. On the other hand, most people who are interested in translating the bible are interested in doing so because they believe the bible is God’s word and authoritative. So, I think it’s probably fair to say that there is typically more energy and care poured into trying to get the translation right with the biblical text than there would be typically in say a translation of Dante or even Homer’s Odyssey, which is not at all to disparage the really good and hard work of translators who do that kind of work. But for example, I don’t know of an ancient translation, probably somebody can correct me here – but say an ancient translation of Homer that was done by a committee, or that a committee weighed in on. These are usually done by very learned and competent individuals and often what’s produced is a very good translation. But you can pick up several different translations of Homer and they’ll sound very different and look very different, because an individual has done this. Sometimes they’ll be translated quite differently. So, I think it’s probably fair to say that a lot more human energy goes into trying to get the text right when it’s the bible, because it’s a sacred text – it means a great deal to the people typically that do the translating. >>Krsiten Padilla: The bible is the inspired word of God, as you were just talking about. And you’ve kind of already addressed this. You said that there are many good translations out there but I’ve had conversations with people, church-going people who sometimes wonder is this translation trustworthy. Or how do I know which translation I should use? There seems to be a little bit of maybe anxiety or fear there. I wonder if you could just speak to those people who are listening who might ask that question as it relates to the bible being the word of God and wanting to feel confident about their translation. >>Dr. Thielman: Sure. That’s a really good question. And it is important I think to think hard about the translations that we read, because it is very important that we get the word of God right – we believe it is a light to our feet and a lamp to our pathway. And so it’s quite important that our path be directed in the correct way. So, it’s an understandable concern. I do think that most of the translations out there are very good translations put together by honorable, competent people that take their task very seriously and have done really quite a good job at doing it. So, I don’t think we need to be anxious about which of the major translations out there we should be reading. And I think we can be confident that when we read a translation of scripture, whether we’re reading it in English or if our first language isn’t English, if we’re reading it in Spanish or French or German or Swahili or whatever it might be. I think we can be confident that what we’re reading is the word of God. Of course it’s important that the translation be done by competent serious people who are taking their task seriously. But if that has happened, we can be confident that what we are reading is the word of God, and order our lives accordingly. >>Doug Sweeney: It occurred to me just a minute ago, sitting here listening to you, Frank, that you’ve lived your adult life, your professional life, your ministry life in an age of the proliferation of study bibles. I mean, it’s kind of a blessing. I have a whole bunch of study bibles at home, on my desk, and so on. And I know you’ve been involved particularly with Crossway, doing some of these ESV study bibles. I just finished playing a tiny little role in the ESV’s church history study bible. >>Dr. Thielman: Yes, I have a copy of that. >>Doug Sweeney: Our own Dr. Bray played a massive role in that. Dr. Beckwith helped with that. And so anyway, lots of us are invested, more than most of us are invested in doing these study bibles. Just from a scholarly perspective, as a New Testament guy, tell us a little bit about what goes into that? What do you think about? What are you worried about? What are you hopeful about? ... when it comes to investing in a study bible? >>Dr. Thielman: Well, study bibles have a long and honored history in Christian devotion. There was a Geneva Bible that basically had helpful notes. And I think the reason for study bibles, the reason that they came into being was that we do need help sometimes understanding these passages of scripture that are often quite culturally anchored in an ancient near eastern culture or in the Greco Roman world – what is food offered to idols, for example, in 1 Corinthians 8 – what does it mean in Genesis 15 when God prophesies to Abraham that Abraham will be gathered to his fathers? I mean, what does that exactly mean? So, it’s helpful to have a study bible that has a little note explaining what this means or what at least most competant scholars think something like this means. The challenge in working on a study bible and I thnk the challenge for readers in finding a good study bible is finding one whose notes don’t state the obvious. In other words, you can’t have study bibles that you read the text of scripture and then you go down to the note and it just kind of repeats what you’ve already read in the text. So, we don’t want to do that. On the other hand, study bibles can be too loquatious. They can also just get so long that they basically are trying to be a commentary in concise form. Usually publishers put the brakes on that, because it gets way too expensive to publish too many words, and there’s strict word limits. But that’s the challenge in working on a study bible – is to identify the phrases that really need some comment, but to be sure your comments don’t just repeat what’s already there, or distract from the text. So, the idea is to illuminate the text. I would say if you’re out there trying to pick a good study bible, pick one that kind of brings you full circle back to the text so that you’re not being distracted from the text off into something else, but that you’re coming back to the text understanding it better. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve given your life to the study of the New Testament in its original language. And you teach Greek to our students. Whereas there are some seminaries that don’t require as many languages for their MDIV degree program, we require four semesters of Greek and four semesters of Hebrew. Why should pastors and ministers of the gospel choose a degree program like Beesons that requires such a rigorous study of the bible in its original languages? >>Dr. Thielman: That’s a great question. I’m so glad you asked it, because one of the aspects of Beeson that I am most enthusiastic about is our language requirement. It does rquire a lot of work from our students. But it is work that as people get out into the ministry, they discover it’s really practical. It helps them prepare sermonds, Sunday school lessons, it helps them in counseling sessions. How does it do that? I mean, how does learning an ancient language help us, say, in a counseling session with someone? That’s a fair question. I once heard John Piper say, and I immediately resonated with it, that one of the great values in studying Hebrew and Greek is that it slows you way down when you read the scriptures. So, hopefully we all become very familiar with the scriptures in whatever language is our first language – English for most of us here. HOpefully we know the scriptures backwards and forwards in English. But they can become so familiar in English that we just kind of rattle over them. And one of the great advantages in studying them in Greek and Hebrew is that you’re just looking at them phrase by phrase. You’re slowing yourself way, way down so that you’re thinking about what each phrase means. That’s one of the great values I think. Another great value in studying the original languages is that it really increases understadning when we can read these texts in their original language. It’s not that you can’t understand the gist of what’s going on and preach a competant sermon just working with the English. But as pastors, as people that work in the church who are charged with communcating the word of God with accuracy and clarity, we want to know it as well as we possibly can. We can’t be experts in everything, as ministers. We can’t be time management experts and business experts and so on and so forth. And most of our people in our congregations shuldn’t come to us ... they ought to have somebody else giving them financial advice typically. But we shoudl be experts in the bible. They should be able to come to us and know that they are sittign with somebody that is competant and knowledgeable and understands the scriptures. And more and more one of the great values in studying Greek and Hebrew is tht we’re called upon as ministers to talk to people that have doubts about the integrity of the scritures, their infallibility, where they came from ... there’s just so much misinformation out there about the scripture and then about its meaning. It’s really helpful to be able to talk to people about what the scriptures mean in their original language, to talk to them about the original manuscripts, where they came from, and so I really think that the study of Greek and Hebrew is just almost a requirement for really competant gospel ministry. And I’m so glad that we do it well here at Beeson. It’s just one of the things I’ve valued over the years about our school. >>Doug Sweeney: That is a great word, Frank. And if you’re listening to this and would like to know more about God’s word, we invite you to come and join our community here at Beeson Divinity SChool, and study with wonderful godly experts like Frank Thielman, the bible in the original, the New Testament in Greek. Well, Frank, you know well that we always like to end these podcast interviews by asking our guests a very contemporary spiritual question, and that is what has the Lord been teaching you recently? We want to end on a note of edification, personal edification for those who are listening. So, we ask you – what’s God been doing in your life recently? What are you learning from him? >>Dr. Thielman: Thank you. One of the things the Lord has been impressing on me recently is that we love the scriptures not just because the bible is just a beautiful book, which it is. It is filled with wonderful stories and filled with beautiful poetry, wonderful imagery. It’s such an important book for understanding the history of our world and our culture. All those things are good. But we don’t worship the bible. The bible should take us to Jesus. And the end goal of our study of the scriptures should be a deeper relationship with Jesus. And as somebody that earns a living teaching the scriptures, I have to actually remind myself of this from time to time. That it’s really important not to so emphasize and focus on the bible itself that I forget the goal is to know Jesus better. (laughs) And the scriptures are just this wonderful gift that God has given us to know Jesus better. And that’s their purpose. >>Doug Sweeney: Amen. You have been listening to our brother and friend, Dr. Frank Thielman, who serves as Presbyterian Chair of Divinity here at Beeson Divinity School. Frank has been on our faculty almost since the beginning of Beeson Divinity School. He’s been a wonderful friend to me, just since I’ve joined a little less than four years ago. Thank you very much for being with us today, Frank. We thank you, dear listeners, for tuning in. We want to remind you to pray for us and our students. And we say goodbye to you for now. >>Dr. Thielman: Thank you Doug and Kristen. It was a delight. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.