Beeson Podcast, Episode #635 Dr. Chris Hanna Jan. 3, 2022 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I am your host, Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. We are kicking off the New Year today with a conversation about a new book. A book on Beeson’s founding dean, Dr. Timothy George, written by a former student and Beeson alumnus. We are glad to have you with us. Two brief announcements before we dive in. First, Samford’s trustees have now approved Beeson’s new PHD in Theology for the Church. We believe that the clergy ought to be the most influential, biblical, and theological leaders of God’s people. So, we’ve designed the only PHD program we know of to equip them for just this ministry. Our goal is to underwrite ecclesial theology – that is theology done in, with, and for the church of Christ to the greater glory of God on a part of its pastors and denominational leaders. Our own Dr. Gignilliat will run this program. And several of us on the faculty will supervise its students. If you’d like to learn more, go to www.BeesonDivinity.com/news. You’ll find an article with details about this new program and a link at the bottom to an interest form for those who want to stay in touch with us about it. Second, our spring semester begins soon, on January 19th. Please keep our faculty and students in your prayers. And please join us for our opening convocation on January 24th when Dr. Jonathan Linebaugh, our new Anglican Chair of Divinity, will preach to our community. If you’d like to stay abreast of all that’s happening here, head on over to www.BeesonDivinity.com/events and sign up to receive our biweekly digital newsletter called Happenings (under the News & Media tab on our website). All right, Kristen, would you please tell us a little bit about today’s special guest? >>Kristen Padilla: Hello, everyone, and Happy New Year! We have on the show with us today one of our Beeson alums, Chris Hanna. Chris is professor of Theological Studies at Highlands College, which is right here in Birmingham, Alabama. He also serves as a pastor at The Church of the Highlands. He is married. He and his wife have a son. And so we’re just thrilled that you’re on the show with us today, Chris. Welcome. >>Chris Hanna: Yeah, excited to be here. I count you and Dr. Sweeney as great ministry partners and friends. So, excited to be a part of the conversation. >>Kristen Padilla: Thanks, Chris. Well, you were on our show almost a year ago, on January 25th with a couple of your friends and colleagues, actually Beeson graduates, talking about the work that you all are doing at Highlands College. So, listeners, I recommend that you go back to that episode (#585) and listen to Chris introduce himself and his journey to Christian faith on that episode. But on this particular episode we want to talk to you about your new book, which is called Retrieval for the Sake of Renewal: Timothy George as a Historical Theologian. This was published recently by Wipf and Stock. So, as a way of an introduction for today’s show, I’m curious to know what made you interested in Timothy George and when did your interest in writing this book begin? >>Chris Hanna: Yeah, thanks so much. I want to answer it in two ways. First, kind of the biblical foundation for doing a book like this and the criteria for that, and then just kind of some personal specifics. So, first, the biblical foundation. When I think about that question, why would I want to write a book about Timothy George, I think about Hebrews 13:7. So, Hebrews 13:7 says, “Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God, consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.” So, as a Beeson student and then as a graduate I came to believe that Timothy George was a leader worth remembering, that he had a message worth sharing, that he had a way of life worth considering, and he had a faith worth imitating. So, I think that’s really the biblical foundation and criteria for remembering a leader with a book like this, like Timothy George and Retrieval for the Sake of Renewal. But this January marks ten years ago that I started my MDIV studies at Beeson Divinity School. I was already working in ministry full time, but Beeson was the one school that I wanted to attend to receive the real ministry training that I needed to do full time ministry. So, it was the only school I wanted to attend, and the only seminary I applied to. So, I was fully committed to coming here and studying here. And then while I was a student here is when I got to know and be under Dr. George’s teaching and administrative leadership, and then it was in January of 2015 that Dr. George and I were in a conversation and I asked ... I wanted to know more about how he did historical theology and what it meant. I was in the middle of a history and doctrine sequence as a student here. And I was trying to understand what was happening. I loved what was happening. And I enjoyed it. But I wanted to really put my arms around it. And he pointed me to a lecture that he had given at Southern Seminary called Dogma: Beyond Anathema: Historical Theology and Service of the Church. And he sent me that ... he found that article for me and sent me the PDF, which I really appreciated. And that conversation and reading that lecture was really the beginning of my interest in studying his work as a historical theologian. I think as a student here as well I just saw this is a leader who has humility. This is a leader who has theological wisdom. This is a leader who is genuinely kind to students and to colleagues. This is a leader who when he talks you can understand what he’s saying, even though he has two degrees from Harvard University. And this is a leader who has real pastoral warmth. So, that’s why I wanted to study Timothy George. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. Hanna, lots of our listeners know a little bit about Dr. Timothy George, but not many of them know a lot about him as much as you know about him by now. So, would you give us just a brief summary of Dr. George’s life and let us know, was there anything as you wrote this book about him that even a guy like you who had been a student of his and known him for some time learned that was new – maybe surprised you? >>Chris Hanna: Yeah, I think a great way to think about kind of a brief sketch of his life and I encourage your listeners, I go way more in detail in my book about this, but I’ll give a real brief sketch here, is to look at his life in the journey of four cities. The first city is Chattanooga, Tennessee. Dr. George was born there. This is his birthday month – January. So, January 9th, 1950. He was born in Earlinger Hospital. And sadly when you look at his life story, this is one of the things that surprised me most, was how difficult his upbringing was. Oftentimes Dr. George talks about that he grew up in what we call now a “dysfunctional” family. That’s an understatement. And so when you look at the beginning of his life, David Dockery describes Dr. George as “a desperately poor kid from Chattanooga.” There’s an area between Main Street and 23rd Street and inner city Chattanooga that was called “Hells Half Acre.” This is the area of town where he grew up. He was raised by parents who were not able to take care of him. His mother had a debilitating disease (polio). His father was an abusive alcoholic and died in prison when he was 12. And so Dr. Timothy George at that time is raised by two great aunts who couldn’t read or write. They did take him to the public library and encouraged him in all sorts of things. And they did take him, his Aunt Mary, to a Baptist Church. And this is where he becomes a Christian and this is where his spiritual life is cultivated in what he calls “a country church in the city.” This is a key part, and one thing that really surprised me, is Dr. George’s family and extended family are majority Mormon. And the only male presence in his life is his Uncle Willy, who is what Dr. George describes as a “died in the womb Mormon.” And so Dr. George talks about how he learned to be a theologian by arguing and talking about Mormonism and biblical historic Christianity with the Mormon missionaries and his Uncle Willy. He says, “My family couldn’t read or write, but they could think and talk and argue.” And so he learned to be a theologian through that. And so it’s in Chattanooga that he gets his love for history, that he gets his calling; it’s in August of 1961 that he really receives a calling to preach. So, he’s 11 years old at the time. No one told him he had to go to divinity school to be a preacher, he just started preaching. And he becomes a youth evangelist. By the time he was in college in Chattanooga studying history, he is leading a church full time as their pastor. He meets Denise Wise at a church that he is preaching at in Flintstone. Outside of Chattanooga there gets married at a young age. And so, yeah, it’s in Chattanooga that he becomes a Christian, receives his calling, gets married, and then he gets some advice about where to go to school next. And that leads him to the second city which is Cambridge, Massachusetts (or Boston). So, after he’s received his education at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga in history, he goes to Harvard because he’s heard about this professor named George Huntston Williams who had written this great book called The Radical Reformation. Oftentimes today in church history we talk about the radical reformers. Well, George Huntston Williams coined that phrase. He’s the one that really first expressed it that way. And it’s at Harvard that he goes there not to become a professor but because he’s a pastor and he wants to receive the best training he can get. So, he goes to Boston, he goes to Cambridge, Massachusetts. One thing that surprised me was during that time his apartment gets broken into, his car gets stolen, he experienced some real difficulty also while he was there as a student. But he’s leading, he’s preaching, he’s pastoring. First, he wants to study New Testament, but then he realizes he can’t just jump, just kind of leap over church history back to the New Testament – that there’s an important 16th century, there’s an important reformation that’s really key in the development of the church that we shouldn’t leap over to some kind of pure primitive experience in the first century. And so it’s through that that he decides to really jump into the reformation as a scholar. So, he stays in Boston for seven years, he does a master of divinity there. And then he does his doctor of theology. And that’s really where his love for church history and his love for doctrine is developed through a certain lens. He’s got two professors there. One professor is a guy named Harvey Cox. Harvey Cox ... you might think that him and Dr. George would get along because they both have similar denominational background, they both have experience as youth evangelists, but Harvey Cox believes that the only two centuries that you should study are the first century and your current century. That looking through church history defined valuable information he calls “ransacking the past.” He believes it’s really a pointless endeavor. So, that’s one professor that this young Timothy George has. And there’s another professor he has, which I’ve mentioned already as George Huntston Williams. And George Williams has a completely different view of the centuries of the church and how valuable they are to the theological enterprise. So, instead of going the way of Harvey Cox who was an influential professor, maybe the most popular professor at Harvard when Dr. George was a student there, he goes the way of George Huntston Williams. And that’s just a pivotal intersection in his life as a student and the real trajectory of his future studies and future leadership. So, he starts in Chattanooga, he finds his way to Boston. Before he graduates from Harvard Divinity School, Southern Seminary calls and they want him to come teach Church History and Theology. So, even before he graduates he’s able to get a faculty teaching job at Southern Seminary. He goes there and spends about ten years there. This is really where he learns to teach, he learns to love students, he really could have been buried there, he loved Southern Seminary so much. But he learns to love teaching and he learns how to teach. And he had wonderful students. He was there at a pivotal time in the Southern Baptist Denomination’s history – during what’s called “The Controversy” or “The Conservative Resurgence.” And it’s while he’s at Southern Seminary that he writes Theology of the Reformers and other important works that he begins to contribute to and kind of establishing himself as a reformation scholar. It’s in 1988 or in the mid ‘80s that he gets a call from Tom Courts saying, “Hey, we have a really generous benefactor, Mr. Beeson, who wants to start a divinity school. And we believe that you’re the person for the job.” So, he didn’t apply to be the dean of Beeson Divinity School. At the time it was just called Samford Divinity School, for the first six months. But he comes to Birmingham, that’s really the fourth city, and he begins this great work that we now know as Beeson Divinity School. So, that’s kind of a brief sketch of his life through those four cities. >>Kristen Padilla: If I remember correctly, I remember you telling me that when you approached Dr. George about initially doing a dissertation on him that he resisted and then conceded as long as you studied those people in his life who had a major influence on him. I know that this book really does that. It looks at those influencers. And you’ve mentioned a couple of people already. So, I wonder if you could talk about that? First, am I remembering correctly? >>Dr. Hanna: That’s right. >>Kristen Padilla: And then secondly who were these people and how did they influence Dr. George? >>Dr. Hanna: Yeah, that’s exactly right. Dr. George calls it ... he gave me a ministry discouragement when I came to tell him I wanted to write a book about him. And my response in that moment to him was ... he said, “Write about Aquinas. Write about Augustine. Write about Wesley. Write about Luther. Don’t waste your time writing about me.” And I said, “Dr. George, your perspective as a historical theologian is the wardrobe that students can walk through to get to Narnia where they discover Augustine, and Aquinas, and Luther, and Wesley, and others.” And he said, “Well, that’s really beautifully said, kind of extravagant, and I appreciate it.” And so he is in a sense a window into these things. But the people that formed him are three key figures. The first key figure is George Huntston Williams. The Harvard Divinity Professor. And he really contributes really three things to Dr. George. This idea of church history as a theological discipline. Church history is not just chronicling. It’s not just names and dates and dead people and details. No, there’s a theological value to doing church history where there is not just a discernment about what happened, but there’s a commitment. And there’s a confessional element to it where it adds value to our faith. So, that’s church history as a theological discipline. Second is ecumenism. So, really George Huntston Williams opened up Dr. George’s eyes to the broader and wider church. Williams was a protestant observer at Vatican II at all four sessions of Vatican II. And was a close supporter of Pope John Paul II. And so there’s the interest in ecumenism that really comes from Williams. And then there’s social action. Williams is, even in the early 1970s and late 1960s, a Harvard Divinity professor is a staunch pro life advocate. And so as a church historian speaking to the concerns of the present moment, Williams did that as a part of his vocation as a church historian, not in spite of it. And so a cultural engagement. And we see things that Dr. George has done like that with the Manhattan Declaration. Actually Dr. George’s involvement in the Manhattan Declaration which stood for life and family and religious freedom, as a real legacy to the work of Williams. The second key figure is David Steinmetz. Now David Steinmetz was a visiting professor at Harvard while Dr. George was there as a student. And Steinmetz is really in the school of [inaudible 00:17:16] Oberman and it’s really interesting. Steinmetz was Dr. George’s favorite classroom teacher, but what’s fascinating about courses is that Oberman taught Calvin and the reformed tradition, which David Steinmetz was in, and then in that same school David Steinmetz taught Calvin and the reformed tradition to Timothy George that same course. And at Beeson Divinity School, if you want to check the media center, there is Calvin and the reformed tradition taught by Timothy George. So, there’s a clear linkage to people like David Steinmetz and Oberman and others. But really what Steinmetz gives us is reformation studies and the history of biblical interpretation and really understanding these key figures in the reformation through their biblical interpretation and through comparing biblical exegesis. Sometimes we call it ... he says “the superiority of pre critical exegesis,” is what Steinmetz says. And then the history of biblical interpretation that you’re not the first person to read the bible. And so the people of God before us when we value their insights into the biblical texts, we’re benefitting from them because the Holy Spirit through the work of illumination is helping the church understand the text better. When we listen to the whole church as we read the bible, we begin to understand the text better, right? And so the history of biblical interpretation and reformation, George gets that from Steinmetz and the whole reformation commentary series is in legacy to someone like David Steinmetz. I think that’s clear. He was a guest at Beeson Divinity School the first reformation heritage series, David Steinmetz lectured at I think in the early ‘90s. And so he’s been here at Beeson Divinity School. The third key player is Yurislov Pelican. And when Dr. George was in his early twenties he committed, “I want to read everything this person has ever written.” He says, “I wish that I could write like Yurislov Pelican.” And so we see that Christian doctrine is what the church has believed and confessed and taught on the basis of the word of God. And these major works in historical theology. And so really Yurislov Pelican is the exemplar of historical theology for Dr. George. And so those are the three key figures. And I go into much greater detail about that in the book. >>Doug Sweeney: Chris, you’ve rightly focused this book on Dr. George’s passions as a historical theologian. But it’s probably true to say that in the church at large he’s even better known for his ecumenism. I wonder for the uninitiated if you could tell us a little bit about his ecumenism. What kind of ecumenist was he? Why did ecumenism become such a big part of his life and ministry? >>Chris Hanna: So, a really key phrase when we think about Dr. George as an ecumenist, the rally cry, the drum that he beats is that we should seek to be an ecumenism of conviction, not an ecumenism of accommodation. Right? An ecumenism of conviction, not an ecumenism of accommodation. So, he believes that we should have real convictions and that we should stand within our traditions and speak to and from our traditions to other traditions. Kind of an interdenominational cooperation or interdenominational engagement. And that’s what he’s done with things like Evangelicals and Catholics Together (ECT). That’s what he’s done in starting a place like Beeson Divinity School. Beeson Divinity School is an ecumenical experiment, where professors can really have a clear convictional denominational identity and at the same time interact and engage with and learn from and work with professors from other denominations. And so Beeson is really an ecumenical experiment. It’s not about accommodation but is about conviction. And about a deeper identity that we share as the body of Christ, the large kind of “C” church. CS Lewis would talk about it as the hallway, right? We’re all traveling through this hallway, but we also have these rooms in our different denominational traditions. So, yeah, I think those would be some clear ways that Dr. George has been a part of that. He speaks as a Christian who is a protestant Baptist and an evangelical and all those markers are important to him. And he doesn’t compromise his protestant or Baptist or even evangelical traits when he’s speaking as a Christian to other Christians who are from a different denomination than him. >>Kristen Padilla: In one chapter of your book you describe George’s view of the importance of historical study as critical coordinates. So, what are those critical coordinates and how can they help us think about and understand historical theology as we want to perhaps emulate Dr. George in the way that he approaches church history? >>Chris Hanna: This is a really fascinating, really clear and practical way that Dr. George talks about the value of studying history is through these two critical coordinates. Any sense of history grows out of the fact that we perceive ourselves and the world around us through finitude and we are finite beings and to respect space and time. And so Dr. George was born in Chattanooga in 1950 and he would be a different person if he was born in Chattanooga in 1850 or if he was born in London in 1950. Time and space shapes, to a large extent, who we are and who we become. Critical coordinates of time and space. And so they shape what we call our perspective. And the perspective that you have is the world that you live in. And what church history does is it allows us to enlarge our perspective. It allows us to learn from other Christians and other times and other places. And by doing that we gain a whole new perspective on who we are and on what God has done through learning from people from different times and places through those critical coordinates. So, if we don’t learn from church history, we’re really limiting our perspective. But if we eagerly and with anticipation learn from church history we can really widen our perspective. And if we know who we are, then as Christians from church history, then we’ll have a real identity in the present to fulfill the mission that God has given us. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. Hanna, Timothy George is an exceptionally creedal Baptist theologian. And that’s a sentence that’s worth letting sink in for a minute. There are some Baptist theologians who champion slogans like, “No creed but the bible.” But Dr. George is not among them. He’s a very creedal guy. And he’s trying to talk students into letting the creeds shape their understanding of scripture and the Christian life as well. And one interesting feature of your book is that you use the four marks of the church from the Nicene Creed to kind of summarize Timothy’s approach to theology. Give our listeners a little feel about that. How does he do that? And why is that so significant for him? >>Chris Hanna: Yeah, when we think about the Nicene Creed, we have these four traits of the church. The church is one, the church is holy, the church is catholic, and the church is apostolic. And as I began to look at Dr. George and all the different influencers and contributions, I realized that these four marks encapsulate really all that he’s done in this area, which is kind of an amazing statement. So, look at the oneness of the church. And we see that Dr. George has always championed the unity of the church. He’s not a historical theologian of Baptist Protestants in the 17th or 18th century. He’s a historical theologian for the church throughout time and space. And so the unity of the church, the oneness of the church. Secondly, we see the holiness of the church. The reason that we retrieve is because we want to be renewed; that there is spiritual insights and biblical insights from the church tradition for us today that we can, once we know who we are we’ll know what to do. And if we lose church history then we’ll lose our identity. But if we regain church history then we’ve regained our identity in the present so that we can fulfill the mission that God has given us. That brings renewal and that’s what holiness is about. Then we have the catholicity. Catholicity is really about the whole tradition, right? It’s about the orthodox church teaching. And we see that Dr. George gets that from the creeds and from Yurisolv Pelican’s emphasis on Christian Doctrine of what the church has believed, confessed, and taught. And so we see the catholicity of the church. And then the apostolicity isn’t an apostolicity of succession. It’s an apostolicity of what is the content of the apostolic teaching, which is the New Testament. So, on the basis of scripture. And that’s where there’s a huge emphasis on biblical interpretation and the history of biblical exegesis. And so in that sense, Dr. George’s traits as a historical theologian are the traits of the church. Its oneness, its holiness, its catholicity, and its apostolicity. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, I have two questions. I know we’re almost out of time. Before I ask, I just want to encourage you, our listener, to go to Amazon and find Chris’s book and purchase it. I think it’s truly special to have a Beeson alum write the first book of this kind that I know of about our founding dean, Timothy George. I can just attest as someone who has worked with Dr. George that everything that you said is spot on as to who this person is. But two questions: One, I wonder if you can describe and tell the story of the book cover to our listeners and why you chose it? And then two, what do you hope, or what is your prayer for this book as it relates to your readers? What do you hope that those who read your book will take away about Dr. George? And what is your prayer for it? >>Chris Hanna: Yeah, thanks so much, Kristen. One of the reasons that this book cover photo struck me as I tried to find the right image that would be the cover for the book is the use of light in the window. I think that church history brings so much light into the kind of current darkness that we’re facing. And I love the window. This book is meant to ... and I think this is Dr. George’s work as a whole ... is not meant to help us to look to George but rather through him. The book helps us look with him at what he’s learned from the great tradition; what he’s learned from church history and the riches of church history that he’s discovered. This book helps us as a window to see into that. And he is like a window into the value of church history. And so the window and the light pouring in on him at work as a historical theologian in the photo, and that the book invites ... it’s an invitation to the reader to join him in discovering the riches of church history, and how valuable that is for Christian spirituality in the present, and Christian mission in the present. So, that’s what struck me when I saw the picture – was Dr. George at work inviting us to come look around his shoulder and see what he’s discovering in the riches and treasures of church history for the church today. I love this picture because it was first used in the 2019 Beeson Magazine edition For All The Saints, which was a tribute to Dr. George. And Kristen, you’re the editor of that magazine and this picture was used in an article that you wrote about Dr. George in a tribute to him. And so it was wonderful to be able to use an image that was from Beeson and I just want to thank you and Samford University for allowing permission for me to use it in the book, because I think it captures so much of who he is and I think it has that symbolic meaning for me as well. And so thanks for doing that. When it comes to what I hope readers will get, or what’s my prayer for this book, number one, I hope readers discover the theological value of church history. Church history, Dr. George sometimes has joked or even said seriously that it’s the most important course in the theological curriculum because it gives perspective to all the other courses. And so there’s so much theological value in church history and it’s more than names and dates and details. There is something really meaty and substantial here for us. So, that’s the first thing, the theological value of church history. The second thing – I hope that when readers see Dr. George’s example in this book, that they’ll develop better relationships with Christians outside of their denomination. Dr. George has learned from Williams, who is a Unitarian, he’s learning from Steinmetz, who is a Methodist, and he’s learning from Pelican, who is a Lutheran and then later Eastern Orthodox Christian. And so I hope that readers will learn how to develop better relationships with Christians outside of their denomination. Third, I hope that readers will use the resources of Church History for biblical insights and spiritual renewal. And Dr. George really models how to do that in this book. Because church history is a resource, a tool ... I think readers can stay rooted in their local churches while learning from an appreciating Christians from the wider church. There’s just so much ministry application from the resources of church history that we’re not tapping into that are possible when we see church history as a tool. So, that’s what I really hope that readers gain from it. Most of all, I hope that they ... what’s amazing is what God has done in the life of this desperately poor kid from Chattanooga who his dad died in prison when he was 12, that God can take a life like that and then use that life for his glory for the glory of Jesus Christ. >>Doug Sweeney: Chris, you know because you’ve been on the show before that we like to conclude our podcast interviews by asking our guests what the Lord is teaching them these days. We like to end on a note of edification for those who are listening. And so we want to ask you, “What’s the Lord doing in your life these days? What’s he teaching you right now?” >>Chris Hanna: One thing the Lord is teaching me right now ... I’ve been meditating on verse three in the Book of Jude that reads, “Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.” Someone who is a great inspiration to me, Gavin Ortlund, recently pointed this verse out. And about the emotional tones, we’re eager to write about our common salvation. So, there’s an emotional eagerness about the common salvation that we have. That’s really the ecumenical foundation of Dr. George. That conviction that we have in our common salvation, but it’s sometimes necessary to write about and contend for the faith. And so we’re eager about our common salvation but we contend necessarily for the faith once delivered. >>Doug Sweeney: A good word and a wonderful book to which we’re hoping you’re going to pay due attention in the days ahead. You’ve been listening to Chris Hanna. He’s professor of Theological Studies at Highlands College. He also serves as a pastor at the Church of the Highlands, here in Birmingham, Alabama. We’re proud to say he’s an alumnus of Beeson Divinity School, and we’re really grateful to you, Chris, for being with us today. Thank you, listeners, for tuning in. We’re praying for you. Please pray for us. We say goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.