Beeson Podcast, Episode #633 The Most Reverend Laurent Mbanda 12/20/22 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. Just a few hours ago we concluded another service of commencement and consecration during which today’s guest gave the sermon – a wonderful sermon, I might add. 19 students graduated with an MDIV degree. Please pray for this dear group of faithful gospel ministers as they go forth and serve in the name of Jesus Christ. What a privilege it is to have today’s guest with us all the way from Rwanda. He’s become a cherished friend over the past couple of years. The Lord has used him mightily to build up his church and educate its younger members for decades now. Kristen, I wonder if you might let our listeners know some more about him before we jump right into our conversation? >>Kristen Padilla: Sure. Thank you, Doug. And hello everyone. Today on the show we have the Most Reverend Laurent Mbanda who is the Archbishop of the Province of the Anglican Church of Rwanda. He is married to Chantel. He has several degrees from Denver Seminary, Fuller Seminary, Trinity International University, and I’m going to let you tell more about yourself to our guests, but we’re just so glad to have you with us. >>Mbanda: Thank you very much. It is a joy to be here today. Yes. I’m Laurent Mbanda from Rwanda, married to Chantel. We have three children and a son-in-law. My daughter lives in Rwanda. She has two of our grandkids. And she is married [inaudible 00:02:00] and her name is Erika. We have also two boys. One is [inaudible 00:02:05] and the other is in Philadelphia, works in New York in the area of finance. We are blessed to have those children. And God has been wonderful to us. These children were born in the States when we were students. One in Chicago. Two in Denver. And so they have not really lived in Africa, but we have traveled extensively in Africa. We are so happy to have our daughter Erika next door to us and our two grandchildren. >>Doug Sweeney: Bishop Mbanda it’s so good to have you with us today. I want our listeners to learn a little bit about your ministry of course but before we ask you about your ministry we want them to hear a little bit about your life story. It really is a story of God’s faithfulness, a story of difficulty. I have read and delighted in a book that you have written called From Barefoot to Bishop: A Rwandan Refugee’s Journey. In it you talk a little bit about growing up in Rwanda during some of the ethnic tensions of the late 1950’s, becoming a refugee, needing to flee. Would you tell our listeners just a little bit about your early life and the way God provided for you during those years? >>Mbanda: Sure. I was born in the country of Rwanda. My parents fled the country when I was about five years old. They fled first to [inaudible 00:03:25] came back into Rwanda and then fled again shortly after that to Congo. In the 1950’s when the first tensions that led to the genocide actually started in Rwanda. So, I grew up as a refugee kid in [Burundi 00:03:41] in Congo and then in Burundi. So, and lived in a refugee camp most of my time. My father was a school teacher in Rwanda. He didn’t have much education. He had done just seventh grade. And so when we got into the refugee camp in Burundi [inaudible 00:03:58] he started a school. The school grew to be about 3,000 students and they were in the school for a number of years. And missionaries came to the school to help refugees; provide bibles, provide food, provided clothing, and they also were able to reach to my father. And my father became a Christian. A year later my mother became a Christian. So, I grew up in that kind of home environment. And every time I went to church with my parents, especially since the school had also become part of the missionary work, and on Sundays they would give an invitation for people to come forward. There were some [incentives 00:04:41] that for some reason refugee kids would always go forward to pray and to pray to receive Christ. [inaudible 00:04:49] be given either a crayon or a picture or something. And so it was almost like every Sunday you wanted to go forward because you were getting something. But growing up as a refugee kid our school was under [inaudible 00:05:04]. We didn’t have much in terms of what to write on. We wrote on our arms or wrote on our thigh. We were very careful not to use lotion or soap so that your skin stayed dry so that you could write on it and show the teacher. So, I grew up in that kind of environment. I started teaching school when I was in grade three. Because I was tall and big and my father was the headmaster. So, if they needed somebody to go into grade one to keep the kids quiet, my father sent me there. And kind of somehow helped the children with math or multiplication and things like that. So, my growing up was a challenge. It was a challenge because I watched many people dying of hunger, watched people dying of all kinds of sicknesses, [inaudible 00:05:43], things that come into the refugee camp. During those days, the refugee camps were not like today where you have the Red Cross, [inaudible 00:06:01], World Vision, the Compassion, [inaudible 00:06:05]. At that time all we knew was Red Cross and a few UN organizations that would bring in food. So, it was a difficult upbringing. But I thank God ... and many children were dying but I thank God that we survived. I didn’t go to a classroom or had something to write on until I was in grade five. So, when I finished elementary school in Burundi you had a quota for refugee kids to go to high school. So, the first time I didn’t make it. And then I went the second time, I didn’t make it. I didn’t make the quota. And so that time I decided, well, maybe it is better for me to just go into another country and find life in a different way. But missionaries who were friends to my father decided that they were going to help. So, they took me through the backdoor and took me to a mission high school. Which is where I re-dedicated my life to Christ because although the years I knew I had been going forward I knew I had committed to Christ but I heard people say I received Christ in such and such September, this time, naming dates, and for me I wanted to be sure. And I wanted to re-dedicate my life to Christ. So, I did in 1970, my first year of high school. And we were in a mission high school. And from that time I was on fire for the Lord. I wanted to serve the Lord. So, time went by. I finished high school. I couldn’t find a job in Burundi. It was very difficult. There were some missionaries who were trying to help. It didn’t work. Mainly because I was a refugee. Then I prayed, I talked to my parents, I know my parents wanted to be around and to help, especially since I was a first born, but I somehow ran away from home, really, and went through Tanzania and found my way into Kenya, 500 miles, six months, mostly walking, and begging on the streets, and in the streets of Nairobi. When I got there I lived on the street for a while and then found somebody who took me into their home for a while. And that journey also led me to a bible college that was away from Nairobi, almost 250 kilometers in a place called [inaudible 00:08:41]. I went there, I didn’t know anybody, but introduced myself. I didn’t look like a student. But by God’s grace they allowed me in and accepted me as a student. And challenged me to pay for my school fees. I didn’t have the money to pay. So, they gave me a month. I couldn’t find the money, the principal came and said you are out. We cannot help you if you don’t have funds. But the story went around. And it got to some missionaries in Indiana. And one missionary one evening shared the story with their group. And a young lady heard the story. She had been in Burundi for a year as a missionary teacher for the children of missionaries. [inaudible 00:09:25] at that time. She was not married. And now Nancy [inaudible 00:09:30] but she heard the story and gave $300, which is what started me in the bible college. And from that time on God provided in many different ways. Long story short, I finished the bible college and then went to work for Campus Crusade. And served the Campus Crusade, staff trainer, leader, [inaudible 00:09:50] for Campus Crusade in Burundi. Which led to me coming to the States in 1982 to meet Bill [Bright 00:09:57] and [inaudible 00:09:58] who was his Vice President, mainly because I had made a mistake. (laughs) And I had to explain myself. Campus Crusade challenges you to raise your own support. But that was a foreign idea in Burundi. So, rather than raising personal support we tried to raise money for ministry in-kind. Whatever we got in-kind – bananas, flowers, chicken, we’d take it to the market and sell it. The money we got we would use it to pay rent and for operations. And the money that Crusade gave us for operations, I would use it to pay my staff. That’s where I violated the Campus Crusade policy. Which led me to come to Arrowhead Springs [inaudible 00:10:42] and only to be blessed, after explaining, young man, tell me what you are doing? And I told him and he said, go and continue doing what you are doing. And so that’s the story. But after four years of Crusade, I came to the States as a student, and it was not an easy life either. You can starve even in the States. And so started out at Fuller, was kicked out because we didn’t have the money to finish. Went to Denver Seminary, which helped me with some scholarships, but at the same time worked on campus and then later on Fuller said, hey, you can come and take courses if you want, which I did. And at the time of wanting to do my doctorate, they said, no, you cannot take the comprehensive exams because you have not paid. And it was a time [inaudible 00:11:36], bless his heart, he was at Fuller at that time, said, “I know someone who can help you.” And referred me to a man by the name of Ted Ward who was an administrator at that time, but he was moving at Trinity to start the school of education. Talked to Ted, invited me to Trinity, and I went there and God opened the door. Got into the seminary. And God again provided miraculously $20,000 for my tuition and the school gave me a place to live, I became a security guard for four years on campus, and ended up graduating without owing anything. So, that’s God provision for my life. So, there’s a little bit about the story of my education. Maybe we’ll get to where we can talk about my work. >>Kristen Padilla: Yeah. You’ve been involved in a lot of ministries, I’ve read, and even founding some. Before becoming a bishop and eventually an archbishop. How did you discern that the Lord was calling you into this type of ministry work? And tell us more about the various ministries that you’ve been involved with. You mentioned Campus Crusade. Part one, your discernment about God’s calling in your life. And then part two, the ministries you’ve been involved with before going back to Rwanda. >>Mbanda: Yes. When I re-dedicated my life to Christ in high school I was so excited. We were on fire as a young people in high school. We felt God was calling us to go out and preach the gospel. So, we started moving from one school to another, sharing our testimonies. And for me that was exciting and I knew God was calling me to be a witness to share the gospel, to share my testimony with other students in Burundi. Whenever we had some youth campus we would go there and share the gospel. And from that time on, I started engaging in Vacation Bible School with the missionaries. So, continued until I finished high school. And so at that time I knew God was calling me into full time ministry. I wanted to be equipped and to be trained. But it was an era when missionaries didn’t necessarily view the need of much education. Oh, yeah, you can go and serve. But for me I had two things. One, I really wanted to find an opportunity to go to school and get a degree and be in full time Christian ministry. I didn’t have a feeling of being a pastor, but I wanted to be in full time Christian ministry. I didn’t quite understand what that was. But I knew some missionaries who were not pastors who were using their hands, tentmakers, and so I wanted to serve the Lord by being a tentmaker or bi vocational ministry. And I had heard about the [inaudible 00:14:47] association. I had heard about [inaudible 00:14:51] evangelist. I wanted to be an evangelist or I wanted to work with World Vision, which is an organization that I had heard. But lo and behold after I finished college, I heard about Campus Crusade. And they were looking for somebody who spoke French, to go into the French speaking countries. So, a friend of mine referred them to me. That’s how I got invited to Campus Crusade. And that was exciting because in Campus Crusade it was showing the Jesus film. It was very evangelistic in nature. It was showing the four spiritual laws. That was my element. That was the idea of what I wanted to be. And later on when they came into training and into leadership and management it was exciting, but I wanted to be in the field. And so when I came into the States as a student, and while at Trinity, I was also seeing many African students in the US and I started approaching a number of missions and say, well, you go out there to minister to the students in their countries. What about those that are here? And remember at that time we started what we called African Fellowship Ministries, which was part of the international student incorporated. We were reaching out to students in many different campuses in the US. Reaching out to African students. But then after I graduated, the Lord opened the door for me to work with Christian Aid in Charlottesville, Virginia. It was amazing the way it happened, because I saw an advertisement in a magazine that was put out by an organization called [INTA CRISTO 00:16:35] at that time. So, I called the president and I said, you are looking for somebody to be an Africa Director for your organization? Looking at the qualification this person is me. You didn’t put my name on. So, he called me and he said, if it is you why don’t you come and we talk? So, I went, they interviewed me, and they offered me a job. My wife said I didn’t do it due diligence because I didn’t ask how much I was going to be paid. So, when I got home she asked me and I didn’t know what to say. So, I called them. And they said, “Yeah, we realize that we didn’t talk about that, we’ll put it in a letter to you.” So, I served with Christian Aid for two years as the Africa Director. Then I felt like that was not going to meet my desire which was to serve in Africa but also I started thinking how can I best do that? So, my wife and I started a business in Charlottesville, Virginia. We were selling used clothing, buying it from anywhere, [inaudible 00:17:31] stores, repackaging and sending it to Africa for two years. Great business. And we were able to buy a house, we were able to support ourselves. And we started a ministry called CALM (Christian African Leadership Ministries). The idea was so that we can go to Africa, train pastors, start vocational centers, train ... provide opportunities for income generating, teach skills, being supported by our business. Well, one time the business went south, due to some political situations in Kenya. And during that downward is when Compassion International called me. Compassion International called me because they people served on the board of Compassion that knew me and knew that Compassion was looking for somebody. And also the former president of Compassion was staffer that had been a student of Ted Ward who was my professor. So, I went to Compassion, they interviewed me and offered me a job. And I went to Africa as the African Program Director. Was in Nairobi in ’93, ’94 the genocide happened in Rwanda. And that was a very difficult time. So, I served the Compassion Africa but at that time also Compassion asked me to go into Rwanda via Uganda to rescue people, to provide relief to those that were behind the fighting lines, and I continued doing that until the genocide was stopped. And then helped reset and re-establish the Compassion office in Rwanda. In ’95 I came to the States, more of rest and relaxation as they called it in the NGO industry. And so I came. And at that time Compassion asked me to stay and to serve in Colorado Springs. And I served in different roles, became a vice president for international programs, and served from ’95 to 2004. In 2004, for the first time I took my whole family to Rwanda. Five of us. And when we got there we actually went in 2003, one night, one evening in a hotel in [inaudible 00:19:58] we strongly, all of us, felt God calling us to move to Rwanda. And to help in the re-building of the nation of the country. So, I resigned my job from [inaudible 00:20:10]. I sent a letter to the president and I said when I come I want to talk to you as a brother in the Lord, but I also want to tell you what God is doing in my life. And so I came back to Colorado Springs and officially resigned. And everyone was wondering, is he going into politics? What is going on? Why is he uprooting his children from Monument, Colorado to go to go to Rwanda where it is not safe? So, that thought of saying maybe he’s going into politics made me say, actually, I would not want to because we’re going through elections in Rwanda, I would wait for two months. During those two months Compassion came back to me and said, we don’t want to lose you. What can we do to keep you? And I said, no, I want to go to Rwanda. They gave me a temporary assignment, sent me to Nairobi for six months to a year and said, after that you can move into Rwanda. And so I went to Nairobi, helped to design [inaudible 00:21:07] HIV AIDS for Compassion. After that I came back, I said, here is the work you’ve asked me to do, I’m now moving home. But they had already moved me to Nairobi, which was really a godsend, which was God’s provision. I didn’t know ... when I resigned I didn’t know where we were going to get the ticket, five of us, how were we going to move our things, but Compassion moved us to Nairobi. It was much closer to Rwanda. So, when I finished the curriculum, Compassion said, well, if you want to stay with Compassion, you can move to [inaudible 00:21:41]. You can also move the Africa office from Nairobi to [inaudible 00:21:44]. Which I did. And then at that time we are restructuring the organization and they asked me to be the Africa vice president. And I served five years. And after that five years the church started knocking on my door. And asked me if I was interested to serve the church. Which my wife and I took time to pray and had God’s peace. And we resigned from Compassion and went into the church. >>Doug Sweeney: Bishop Mbanda, we have a good number of Anglicans who listen to our podcast and who study at Beeson, and who support Beeson. I’m imagining that a few of them are listening right now and wondering, Doug, you’re sitting across the table from one of the most influential Anglicans in the world and you haven’t yet asked him anything about Anglicanism. So, my next question just has to do with ... So, how did you become Anglican? What was your ordination to the Anglican priesthood like? And how did you become a bishop of the Anglican Church? >>Mbanda: That is a very good question. First of all, let me say that I was not raised Anglican. I was initially my parents were Catholic. But as I said, my father became a Christian under the work of an organization called World Gospel Mission based in [inaudible 00:23:04]. In African we call it African Gospel Church. And after my high school what was African Gospel Church became United Methodist. And mainly because our [inaudible 00:23:21] wanted to be a bishop. And so we were serving there but for some reason he didn’t like anybody who had some kind of education. So, when I joined the Campus Crusade, and I came back into the country, because in Campus Crusade I [inaudible 00:23:35] and then when I came to Burundi to work there he didn’t want some of us who had gone to school because he felt like we were challenging him. So, I worked in the capitol city of Burundi and when he kicked us out, the bishop of the diocese of [inaudible 00:23:53], we were three of us from that church, he said, you guys welcome into our church. We were doing the ministry of students already, we were doing evangelism and discipleship, we were showing the Jesus film. So, we came into the Anglican Church. We were received in the Anglican Church of [inaudible 00:24:11]. And when I came to the States in 1984 as a student, I actually was commissioned by my church to be the commissioner for the Anglican Church of Burundi to the States. So, the bishop connected me with the Episcopal Church. And it was interesting because I came and I knocked on the doors of the Episcopal Church in the US, but then realized it was different from what I was used to in Burundi. And really challenged me, because there were issues I was not comfortable with. So, I ended up not attending the Episcopal Church and attending some of the Bible believing churches in Chicago, I was in an Evangelical Free Church, in Pasadena I went to a Congregational Church. And then in Denver I was in a Baptist Seminary, so I went to a Baptist Church. And but in 1988 the bishop of Burundi called me back and he said we want to ordain you. So, I actually went to Burundi from the States and I got ordained a deacon and came back and continued my ministry with Christian Aid and continued my schooling, continued with Compassion. In 1989 a year after I had ordained deacon, I went back to Burundi and I got priested. So, I continued as a priest of the Anglican Church of Burundi. Serving with Compassion. Many people knew I was ordained, but I was not attending an Anglican Church at that time. Until [inaudible 00:26:03] some of the churches had started getting out of the Episcopal Church to join what was the Anglican Church in North America. And then I found a church in Colorado Springs that had the same belief, the church we were comfortable with. We started attending it, but at the same time attending a non denominational church because of our children, they were already in the children’s program, they were engaged, they were in youth groups. And so when I moved to Rwanda in 2005, because we had moved in 2004, Nairobi in 2005 in Rwanda, everybody in Rwanda knew me as an Anglican. Those who had lived in Burundi knew me as an Anglican. So, the first thing they did was to actually welcome me. I also went to the bishop at that time in [inaudible 00:27:02] where we were living and I said I’m here, if I can serve in any way. But I was a VP for Compassion in Africa, so I was assigned as an attached priest to the diocese of [inaudible 00:27:16]. So, whenever I was available and was traveling with my job, the job was making me travel a lot, but whenever I was not traveling I would preach at the cathedral, I would preach in local parishes, I would even provide the training for the pastors. So, in 2010, one bishop came to me and said, you know, we have been praying for four years. For somebody to take over from us. It was a bishop talking to me. And it is like the Lord has led us to you. When he said four years I realized that it was almost the time that we had actually moved to Rwanda. And so that was kind of a strain for us, I was working for a big organization, I was a vice president well taken care of, and I was feeling like I was serving full time, serving the Lord, preaching and teaching, I really didn’t see myself fitting into a diocese anyway. But that sent us to pray. My wife and I. And as I prayed I would also go to friends and say, yeah, this bishop talked to me about this. What do you think about it? Will you pray with me? And three of the people I contacted, two in the US, one in Burundi who was a very close friend of mine, my friend in Burundi, when I mentioned that he said, “Praise the Lord, it’s about time that you come! We have been praying for this.” When I came to Colorado Springs and met a friend of mine, John Boss, who was much older than I was and he said, “Mbanda, I can remember when you came to the States, the stories you shared with me. They couldn’t have found a better man for this.” When I talked to another friend he said, “Praise the Lord. I think this is about time.” And my own daughter challenged me. She said, “Dad, why are you struggling with it? Is it because of us, paying our school? We can get a loan and go to school. [inaudible 00:29:23] today and got a million dollars, will you go do this job?” And before I said anything, she looked at me, she said, “Yeah, you would do it. God is calling you in this way.” So, at that time both my wife and I prayed and [inaudible 00:29:41] I went back to the bishop. I said, you know what, you can put in my name because there is an election process, you can put in my name, nobody knows me, and let God’s way happen. If they elect me, I will come. If they don’t, I will continue where I was. And sure enough, they had their fourth synod and they elected me, and then it went to the house of bishops, they approved it, and we came back to Compassion and said we are leaving. And so we left to serve full time. We were in [inaudible 00:30:13] for about eight years. We had a wonderful ministry up in the northern part of Rwanda. We started ministry to children, I knew how to work with children from my Compassion background. Started 217 centers, early children centers, meeting the needs of needy children, young children. We started [inaudible 00:30:33] college that has grown now to be over 2,000 students up north. And I taught development studies in some universities off and on and we want to try to say how can we help the church to be self supporting by uplifting the living conditions of the people so their life can improve and they can support their church and their church can support their diocese? And we started a small seven groups, we started bible study groups, we started the income generating activities. The Lord led us to build a commercial building that is now funding the ministry. We built a small guest house that is funding the ministry. And when I thought I was finished with the diocese, and ready to go back to Compassion, because Compassion had offered me a job, especially since I had been serving on the board after I left, Compassion, they invited us on the board, so I was on the board for seven years, and in the process of moving, from the diocese I was serving, which I was left with one year and a half to retire, the house of bishops got together and [inaudible 00:31:51] we would like you to be archbishop. So, the time came, I went through the process, I was elected archbishop. So, I resigned the new position with Compassion before I actually started, even though I had been in the job in about six months. And we were in the process of moving back to Colorado Springs. So, right before we moved back to Colorado Springs, I was made archbishop. So, the last four years I’ve been archbishop in the Church of Rwanda. And we have started a Christian university. We have five pillars, equipping leaders, evangelism and discipleship, early childhood development and youth, financial literacy, and accountability in management, and sustainability. I like that part of sustainability. [inaudible 00:32:37] for us and for me means developing people, the human resource, and the financial resource. To help us do the ministry God has called us to do. And I’m big in holistic ministry, but currently I’m also serving as vice chair for the GAFCON (Global Anglican Future Conference). I’ve been a part of that movement and will continue to be. We are hosting GAFCON in [inaudible 00:33:09] next year. And GAFCON happens every five years. And next year we are looking at having 2600 people in [Kilgary 00:33:17] in April 17-21. So, that is my ministry with the Anglican Church. I travel extensively. I’m involved in many Anglican groups here in there. And I love it. I enjoy it. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, you gave a wonderful charge to our graduates this morning, and I encourage our listeners to go and listen to that sermon that you gave on our YouTube channel when you’re done with this podcast. But I wonder if you can give just a very short teaser of your message to our graduates? You obviously have many years of experience in ministry in various types of ministry. And you seem like you really spoke out of experience what you’ve learned from your years in ministry to these young people who are going out into ministry for the first time. So, what was that message that you were wanting to convey this morning to them? >>Mbanda: Yeah. The message I wanted to convey is really no different from what we have in Matthew 28:10-20 where Jesus is challenging his disciples to go out and preach the gospel. And disciple people. And preach the gospel to the lost. So, the message was about go and bear fruit. It is a challenge that we get in John 15:1-17. But there is an interesting part there where bearing fruit, being in ministry, I think it staying close to Jesus. But first of all, the experience that happens in our lives. It is the 1 Corinthians 5:17, when we receive Christ we are a new creation, the old is gone, the new has come. What is that “new?” I think that new identity in Christ. That gives us a different set of values, that transform us to desire to live a life that is pleasing to God. And I think what I was trying to say to them is to stay connected. We all have telephones, but if those telephones do not have juice they are not useful to us. And what I was trying to say is stay plugged in Jesus. And he also promises to be with us all the way. When we live a life that is glorifying to God, which is bearing fruit, which is bringing people to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, which is meeting people’s needs – spiritual, physical ... I mean, I look at the whole person. What I call holistic ministry, but we cannot do it alone. And we cannot do it without Jesus. And we cannot do it without the Holy Spirit. So, we need to stay connected if we are going to be fruitful. We need to believe in the empowerment of the Holy Spirit in our ministry. But also there is challenges out here. (laughs) And those challenges that the church is facing and sometimes we are not waiting to speak the truth, or we are being careful not to offend anybody. And yet these challenges are out there. And we are bringing it to our cultures. Modern or primitive. And the scripture is above cultures. And the bible provides us with solutions of any human need of any human problem. So, keep the word of God. Stay close to Jesus. Be obedient to him. And that connectedness, that relationship that is intended to glorify God and glorifying God is living a life that will be honoring to the Lord and that life alone is a testimony that others can look at it and say, “What is different from this person?” And that Christ likeness in us because we are connected, because we are close to him, is enough message to the people that are around us, to places where we work, to people we live with, bearing the fruits of Galatians 5, the fruits of the Holy Spirit. But I think what I was also trying to get to is to say: don’t be ashamed of preaching the gospel. Don’t walk on eggshells. Preach the gospel. Let the Holy Spirit do his work. Don’t worry about offending. I think the problem today, we are in a church, we are in a congregation, we are in a community, and we are being careful in what we say so that we don’t offend. We don’t want to offend our members in the pews, because they cut off and not give their tithes or offering ... (laughs) ... it’s almost like we’re afraid to preach the gospel. And what I was saying is, guys, put Jesus in the center. Know your bible. Bring people to the bible. Bring the lost to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Let God use you. Don’t worry about who you offend or who you do not offend. I think today we need people who can stand. And sometimes we are careful and we are dancing. And compromising. And the gospel is not calling us, God is not calling us into ministry in order to compromise the gospel, but is calling us into ministry to preach the gospel. But we’d better stay connected. And Christ in us and with us and under the empowerment of the Holy Spirit to preach the gospel to the world. >>Doug Sweeney: What an ideal message for seminary students who are graduating. Bishop Mbanda, our time is slipping away. Kristen and I always like to conclude our interviews with guests by asking them what the Lord is teaching them these days that you might commend to our listeners by way of edifying them before they go? So, we ask you: What is God doing in your life these days? What is he teaching you now that would be helpful for our listeners to know about? >>Mbanda: I’m learning more and more by seeing how he works despite us. By seeing how he provides for the ministry. By watching my own life, which is by the grace of God that I am what I am, because I don’t deserve to be. And what I’m learning is to walk humbly with the Lord. And to be available to him. For his use. To bring justice and to be a voice to the voiceless. But more importantly is to walk with him humbly. And glorify him in my life. Stay closer to him. And I believe if I can do that, the Lord will bless me. He will bless my ministry. He will bless my marriage. But to glorify him. And in all of this to be humble. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, if the Archbishop of Rwanda can walk humbly with the Lord, I think the rest of us can as well. Thank you for that word. [crosstalk 00:42:07] >>Mbanda: Thank you. >>Doug Sweeney: You have been listening to the Most Reverend Laurent Mbanda, the Archbishop of the Province of the Anglican Church of Rwanda. He’s married to our friend, Chantel, they have children and grandchildren, a blessed family in ministry. We’re grateful to you for this gift of your time this week and day. Listeners, we want to remind you to pray for these dear students we’ve just graduated. We are praying for you. And we say goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.