Beeson Podcast, Episode #628 Reverend Dr. Gavin Ortlund Nov. 17, 2022 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your house Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. We’re recording this conversation amid our second annual Beeson Alumni Conference. Thanks to a generous grant from the Lily Endowment to help pastors thrive in ministry, we’ve now enjoyed two such alumni gatherings and look forward to many more down the road. Our keynote speaker at this alumni conference is my friend, Gavin Ortlund. Gavin is a Baptist pastor in Ojai, California. He’s also a prolific theologian and conference speaker. We’ll tell you about some of his books in just a few minutes. For now, though, let me say how glad I am to have Dr. Ortlund here at Beeson. He and I served together at a conference in Chicago just a couple of weeks ago. It’s always a blessing to be with you, Gavin. He is full of Christian wisdom. And we’re looking forward to sharing some of that wisdom with you today. So, Kristen, I wonder if you might introduce Dr. Ortlund and get our conversation started? >>Kristen Padilla: Sure! Thank you, Doug. Hello, everyone. We have with us, as Doug has already said, the Reverend Dr. Gavin Ortlund. He is the Senior Pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai which is in California. And is an author, speaker, and Christian apologist with a wide reaching ministry. He’s written some books that we’re going to talk about with him on the show today. Welcome, Dr. Ortlund, to the Beeson Podcast. >>Dr. Ortlund: Thanks so much for having me. I feel honored to be here. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, it’s been wonderful to get to hear from you during the conference. Many of our listeners might already be familiar with you through your works, but I know I don’t know your story, your upbringing and your faith, and your journey to Jesus Christ. I think that would be of interest to our listeners. Could you begin by giving us your background into who you are? >>Dr. Ortlund: Yes. I grew up in a wonderful Christian family. I heard the gospel at a young age. We were just talking about my parents, just wonderful servants of Christ. I went to public schools growing up and really did not have any Christian friends. So, my experience was I had prayed a prayer to receive Christ very young in life, I think I was probably about eight years old at church, but I really struggled with understanding what does it mean to be a Christian? And just sort of, I would say, fell into the pattern of life as my non Christian friends had at school. In ninth grade, my family moved down to Augusta, Georgia and I got involved in a really vibrant youth group. I really think back and just thank the Lord for that youth group; for the youth pastor there, for friends that I made there. That really was the turning point I think in learning how to follow Christ. I think I had the heart’s desire to, but I just didn’t have the encouragement and the understanding of what does that look like in my context. So, that is really where my walk with Christ began to grow. And that’s also where I started to feel a nudge towards ministry, in the context of doing youth ministry at that youth group. So, I really owe a lot to that church. >>Doug Sweeney: Tell us a little bit more about that, Gavin. How did you first sense the Lord was leading you into ministry? And then just tell our listeners briefly, what’s the shape of your ministry been over the years? >>Dr. Ortlund: Yes. We were sharing a little bit about this a few days ago, but I did have to work through some hesitations in that sense of calling to ministry because of my family ... I look up to my parents so much, but there’s a lot of people in ministry in my family. And there was this weird feeling of hesitation just of self doubt, of wondering if I feel a nudge to ministry is this just because I’m so familiar with it and I’ve seen it so much in others in my family? And the way I always summarize this is I finally realized, I just felt a freedom, and I realized my family is not a reason to go into ministry, but it’s also not a reason not to go into ministry. And that just freed me to follow Christ in the way that I felt ... I was doing summer internships with this youth group in Augusta, Georgia and then at one other church as well. And I just remember the thrill of pursuing these students. I remember four seniors in high school in that first summer I was pursuing and just the joy of seeking to reach them for Christ and point them to Christ. And see some fruit from that. And I remember the thought arising in my heart that this is what I want to give my life to, is serving others and in ministry. >>Doug Sweeney: It’s interesting to me, Gavin, as somebody who has written a lot of books about Jonathan Edwards who also grew up in a well known ministerial family to imagine what it’s like for you to do ministry in a family like yours. I mean, for Edwards there was a lot of pressure that he felt kind of living up to the legacy he had received, he had been raised in, he’d inherited. I sat behind your parents this morning while you were teaching and preaching and they couldn’t have been more in a posture of learning and being excited about what God was teaching them through their son as he was speaking. But I wonder, has there been a struggle for you at all? Or is it just mostly a blessing to have parents cheering you on? Have you felt intimidated by it? Or just kind of empowered and blessed by it? >>Dr. Ortlund: Honestly, it’s just a blessing. I can call my dad and say, “Hey, dad, this is what’s happening at the church. What would you do?” (laughs) And then I’ll hear myself later without planning to, repeating things that he said to me because he’s got a lot of wisdom. And there really was never any pressure. Part of that was probably my parents’ wisdom of being deliberate not to put any pressure on me or my siblings. Even to the point of where we live. Sometimes parents can put a little pressure on, “Hey, we want you to be close by us. We want to see you and have time with the grandkids.” And that’s understandable. But even with that, my parents have always been so free to just say, “Go serve the Lord, whatever that looks like, wherever that leads you, and we bless you in that.” So, yeah, I just sincerely feel grateful to the Lord for my family. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, you’ve been in pastoral ministry for some time now and have experienced persevering in ministry which gets at the theme of our conference this year: persevering through the seasons of ministry. I wonder if you can give a teaser to our listeners who haven’t been here to hear your talks about some of the lessons that you have learned and shared with our alumni this week about persevering in ministry? >>Dr. Ortlund: Yes. I have been sharing from 1 Kings 17-19, which is a little portion of the Book of Kings that sort of takes a break from the more rapid-fire movement from one king to another. This is during the reign of Ahab. And it hones in on the ministry of Elijah the prophet. And I shared with everyone last night that these have been stories that have sustained me in ministry. I landed upon them early on during a season of travail and struggle. And God just spoke to my heart through these stories. And so what’s so striking about these chapters is the different seasons they represent. There’s just this one man but his ministry looks so different from one chapter to another. In 1 Kings 17 it’s sort of a wilderness season. There’s draught going on and he’s being fed by ravens miraculously. And then he travels up north and he’s miraculously sustained as the jug and the jar do not run out. And God sustains him in that place. But it’s a very marginalized kind of ministry. Just to a gentile widow and her son. The way that we talked about it was if you imagine the most dynamic minist5ry moment in the bible you might think of 1 Kings 18. If you think of the least dynamic you might think of 1 Kings 17. Of course 1 Kings 18 is the fire that falls from heaven, this public demonstration of God’s power, a very clear result, repentance, the idolatry is rooted out, the draught comes to an end. It’s an amazing scene. And then in 1 Kings 19 Elijah is down in the dumps. He’s completely despondent. He wants to die. And so it’s just fascinating to try to understand what’s going on in his heart, how did the Lord meet him in each different season? And we’ve just been reflecting together about how the Lord meets us in those different seasons we go through. I suspect I’m not the only one who has been through those seasons where you feel as though you’re looking for the ravens of God’s provision. You’re trusting that the jug and the jar will not run out. You’re not in a time of abundance. But you’re seeing God’s daily provision. And then also those seasons of discouragement, like 1 Kings 19. And then also those seasons of great power. And we can learn a lot from chapter 18 about how to harness that. I didn’t get into this as much during the conference, but how to harness that to direct all the glory to the Lord, which is the wonderful thing Elijah does in 1 Kings 18. So, there’s just so many lessons there to learn that hopefully can help encourage ministers amidst these different seasons because that is something we sometimes forget about that ministry can be very seasonal. Sometimes through nothing we’ve done. One experience, one year, one church – might be a very different kind of experience than another. And it helps to remember that. >>Doug Sweeney: And of course in chapel this morning you were in 2 Samuel. You were participating in the series that we designed last spring on the life of King David. And my friend, Gavin, I heard you by the way complain about the assignment that I had given you. (laughs) It just so happened that you came on the week when we were at the story of David and Bathsheba and Uriah the Hittite and just you lucked out, Gavin, that you got to preach on that text for us. (laughs) It was a wonderful sermon. And our regular listeners know we’re in the middle of a series on the life of David. And we’re encouraging them to tune into our YouTube Channel and listen to the sermons. And your sermon was so fantastic. I want to make sure the listeners tune in and listen to it. But give them a little teaser. What are you doing when you talk about David and Bathsheba and Uriah? >>Dr. Ortlund: Well, I felt so honored to dive right into the series. So, that was just my way of inviting people into the challenge of it. It is a very bracing passage. Because of the extent of David’s sin. And that hit me a little more deeply in my preparation of just thinking through how many people were affected by the terrible things that he does in this section of the book. I think what the Lord put upon my heart in studying it was first of all a kind of sober warning about sin, that it is not beyond any of us. We talked this morning about how David says in the Psalms, “Your law is written upon my heart,” to the Lord. So, David had a regenerate heart. He was not like Judas Iscariot. He loved God. And yet, tragically he was led into this terrible pattern of sin. And so one of the lessons that I found myself praying about as I was studying the passage is just to be sober minded about the power of sin. We should never think, “Oh, that’s beyond me.” But to realize that put in the wrong context and leadership can be one of those contexts that’s so challenging and easy to lose perspective in. We should be humbled by what we are capable of. And yet, you do find hope in the passages as well. There’s the words of Nathan to David, “Your sin has been put away.” What a wonderful verb. The sin was put away, you shall not die. And so we just had a chance to reflect upon even for this pattern of sin there wasn’t an ultimate and eternal death that David had to die. And we talked about the precious blood of Jesus Christ, which covers us from all sin when we truly repent and we said if David can repent, we can repent. So, we were able to hopefully get a warning, but also an encouragement. >>Kristen Padilla: We live in a very fragmented, divisive time in culture and in church, and that is something that has been brought up even in this conference. Yet there is also this longing among evangelicals of [inaudible 00:13:29] and belonging and unity. You have a YouTube Channel that I came across called Truth Unites. In which you say that your goal is to be an irenic voice in theology, apologetics, and the Christian life. And you described your work there as having an inward facing role for the church, and an outward facing role toward those outside the church. I wonder if you can explain what you mean by that? And then if you can also share with us about this ministry through your YouTube Channel and what you’re trying to accomplish? >>Dr. Ortlund: Yes. YouTube started for me with the realization that there are so many people who will never come to my church and honestly will never read one of my books and probably won’t even read one of my online articles. (laughs) But they’re curious about ultimate questions and in watching debates, I love watching debates between great apologists like William Lane Craig and so many others who give these fantastic arguments for the existence of God. There’s a lot of energy toward those kinds of debates on YouTube and I just was observing, people are interested. People are asking these deep questions about ultimate things. And so YouTube is a mission field in my thinking. It’s a way to go where conversations are happening, where people are at. I don’t want to leave it just there, but that’s a great first step to try to reach people. And so that’s the outward facing role. I have a great passion for apologetics. I love trying to make the basic truths of the Christian faith compelling to the human heart and to put an arm around the shoulder of someone and say, “Have you considered the wonderful hope that we have good reasons to believe in?” Because if Jesus rose from the dead, then everything sad will come untrue one day. And that’s a wonderful hope to share with people. And there are strong reasons we can give for that. So, that’s part of what I do on YouTube. What’s been surprising to me is also getting pulled into conversations among Christians, different Christian traditions, sort of ecumenical theology, and then also doing sometimes what we call theological triage, which is ranking different doctrines. And it just seems to me, and this is where the irenic bit comes in, we live in a time of such fracturing and polarization. Irenicism means a heart for unity. It doesn’t mean that we compromise our convictions. But I just believe that right now there’s a huge need for considering where could we strengthen our relationships in the Body of Christ? Where can we celebrate and champion what we do have in common? Where can we really put the emphasis upon the core of our faith? The most important things. And so a lot of what I’m trying to do on YouTube is give a sort of winsome case for triage and engaging with other traditions in a respectful way, but also one that commends Protestantism in some cases, in other cases I might be talking about something more specific. So, I’m trying to do both of those things. I see a need for both and hopefully the Lord could use that to bless those who watch. >>Doug Sweeney: Gavin, I want our listeners to know how much we here at Beeson think your apologetics ministry is just marvelous. Of course probably the easiest entry point for them to your ministry is the YouTube Channel for sure. But you’ve written some really helpful apologetical works as well. And you do interviews with others as well. Collin Hansen is one of our board members here, and you’ve done TGC work with Collin Hansen. Let’s get into a couple of the books just for the intrepid ones who want to work hard and get a book and read through it. Seems to me, tell me if you agree, correct me if you don’t – that the best book of yours that’s apologetical in nature to start with would be Why God Makes Sense In A World That Doesn’t. Can you tell our listeners just a little bit about what you’re doing there? In the hope that we might pique the interest of a few of them to go read the book. >>Dr. Ortlund: Yes. Thank you. This is a book that I poured my heart into. And the basic strategy is to give four classical arguments for God’s existence, cast in a narrative frame. So, using these arguments as a way to tell a story about the kind of world we live in. I’ll come back to that in a moment. With a view to showing that the Christian story is not just more plausible than atheistic alternatives which is the main alternative I’m really considering in the book. But also it’s just a better story. It’s more enthralling. It’s more enchanting. It’s more interesting. It gives more dignity to human beings and to our deepest instincts like love and morality and rationality. And I really believe that. And I think there are so many angles from which we can get into this, but in the book ... So, I’m going through for example the moral argument which is the argument that God is the best explanation of objective moral values and duties. That is cast, then, as the drama of the story. The teleological argument that God is the best explanation of the order and design in the universe is cast as the meaning of the story. So, I’m trying to show these arguments are a way of pointing to certain aspects of our world that are the essentially ingredients of any good story. And of course Jesus’ resurrection is the key turning point in the story. And so that’s kind of where the book ends. So, the appeal to the reader is it’s an academic book but it’s written to hopefully be read more broadly. I tried to write it as accessibly as I could. The appeal to the reader is come and see just how wonderful the Christian story is. My hope is that someone going into it might conclude, even if they’re not sure if it is true, that something in their heart might wish it were true. Because it really is the best imaginable hope we could possibly dream up. So, that’s what I’m trying to do. >>Kristen Padilla: You have another book called Finding The Right Hills To Die On. And that’s a good book title. (laughs) I would imagine that it would cause people to want to take that off the shelf and read. Because it gets right at kind of the heart of where many of us are living. How do you discern which hills are right to die on? And especially in a time in which even family members have been at odds with one another. So, can you tell us about this book? What are you trying to do? And what are you wanting to say? >>Dr. Ortlund: Yes. This book was written before the pandemic began. And so, yeah, in some ways it’s been interesting to see since I wrote it how the general importance of this topic, it seems to me, continues to be very important and even grow in importance because in the last few years in the political environment, in the general cultural environment – there is a lot of polarization. And as you put it, there’s a lot of fracturing within the church. So, the idea behind this book is to say let’s try to address that without just watering everything down. We don’t want to be minimalists who don’t have a backbone to stand up for what is good and what is true. And this is something that is so important to me. I don’t do this perfectly, but I aspire to be the kind of person who, like Martin Luther, is willing to say, “Here I stand, I can do no other.” And when it is appropriate to do so, plant yourself and be immovable as a rock and stand for the gospel. And there will always be those testing points where we have to do that. But it seems to me that so many of the fracturings that happen aren’t about the gospel or necessarily even something that’s really close to the gospel. Sometimes it is, but sometimes it seems more out in the fringes where there should be more latitude for Christians to disagree with each other. So, in the book I’m trying to give historical perspective. Where are we fighting today more than Christians have in the past? What’s helpful to know about. I’m trying to bring biblical reasoning, theological reasoning, practical reasoning – to think through, how do we rank different doctrines? And the basic idea is just to say there’s a couple of different buckets we might put things in and hopefully the book gives readers some instincts and some tools to start thinking about what are those first rank issues? What are the second rank? What are the third rank? And so forth. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, listeners, we really do commend ... I think Gavin has published seven or eight books now, and they’re easily accessible on Amazon.com. But Finding The Right Hills To Die On and Why God Makes Sense In A World That Doesn’t are two of his best. All right, Dr. Ortlund, sadly our time is coming to a close. I don’t know if you know this yet or not but Kristen and I have a tradition on the Beeson Podcast in which we ask our guests a real kind of direct and more personal spiritual question. About what the Lord is teaching them these days. You’re obviously a very learned man. You write a lot of books about things that the Lord has taught you. But what’s been going on in your own life recently? And what’s God been showing you or teaching you recently that you might offer to our listeners as a word of encouragement and edification as we close? >>Dr. Ortlund: What first springs to my heart is I was just reflecting about this with my wife a few days ago, is how we’ve seen the Lord so faithfully answer our prayers. It is just amazing to me and it really is a motivation to pray with greater faith. When I look back, Esther and I, we have these big dreams we pray for, we look back and we see the Lord’s faithfulness, and then we have looking forward prayers and dreams that we ask the Lord for. And we were just commenting recently on how we’re almost sort of running out of things to pray for because God has been so above and beyond faithful and good to us. And there have been some events specifically recently where we have prayed for something very specific and the Lord has answer that prayer. Now, of course we bring in the caveats that that doesn’t mean every single thing we ever pray God always answers in the way we expect, but I have just been amazed at that. I’m sort of rebuked and convicted in that a little bit as I look back on earlier seasons of my Christian walk where I didn’t pray as big prayers as I should have. I was praying smaller prayers. And when it comes to ministry, when it comes to my family, when it comes to God’s provision, I’ve just seen the Lord answer specific prayers over and over to the point where it feels that my heart is overflowing with gratitude. And so an encouragement for the listener here as we finish up would be go to the Lord with big prayers and big expectations; surrendering them to his will knowing he knows more than we know. But it is amazing how frequently God answers our prayers. And I’m just amazed by his goodness and faithfulness. >>Doug Sweeney: Boy, that sure is right. The fervent prayers of righteous people avail much. God has promised it. We can believe it and live by it. You have been listening to the Reverend Dr. Gavin Ortlund, our friend, Senior Pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai, California. He’s an author, an apologist, a conference speaker. More importantly he’s a husband and a dad, a real faithful disciple of Jesus. He’s been with us this week speaking at our alumni conference. Again, Gavin, we’re deeply grateful to you for this gift. Grateful to you, our listeners, for tuning in. I want to remind you to pray for us as we pray for you. And we say goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.