Beeson Podcast, Episode #622 Dr. Gerald Bray Oct. 4, 2022 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. And this week on the show we continue our Beeson Faculty Spotlight Series with another of your professors who’s published a new book. This one on the Early Church Fathers and Scripture. Before Kristen introduces him, let me tell you about a couple special events here on campus this month. This week, our Global Center is sponsoring its annual Go Global Missions Emphasis Week. Our special speaker this year is the Reverend Dr. Brian Wright, President of Send Relief. He will preach in chapel on Tuesday, October 4th, and then lecture on Wednesday, October 5th. As ever, you are welcome to attend. Then later this month, at long last, our Beauty of God conference on Preaching, Worship, and the Arts will take place here on campus. If you are a pastor, a worship leader, an artist, or an interested lay person, please join us on October 24th and 25th. Find out more about both of these events at www.BeesonDivinity.com/events. All right, Kristen, who is this esteemed faculty member sitting next to you right now? >>Kristen Padilla: Thanks, Doug. We have on the show today Dr. Gerald Bray. He is Research Professor of Divinity at Beeson Divinity School, where he has served since 1993. He has been on the show several times before. He’s no stranger. We’re glad to have him back as our guest today to talk about a new book that was published this spring on church fathers and their reading of scripture, which you’ve already said, Doug. So, welcome, Dr. Bray, to the Beeson Podcast. >>Dr. Bray: Thank you. >>Kristen Padilla: Since you were on the show in the spring of 2021 I wonder if you can tell our listeners what you’ve been up to since we last spoke with you? >>Dr. Bray: Well, since the spring of 2021 I’ve been writing. I published a history of Christianity in Great Britain and Ireland in the summer of 2021 and since then various other things have come out including the book that we are going to talk about today. And I’ve been working on other things. I’ve done a commentary on the Book of Common Prayer and I’ve also written an introduction to the relationship between philosophy and theology, which is now being read by the publisher and we hope to see these two things appear sometime in the next year or so. >>Doug Sweeney: So, Dr. Bray is no slacker. (laughs) But we’re focused on just one of the books that he’s written recently today. How The Church Fathers Read The Bible. A topic of some interest to me, personally, as well. Dr. Bray, why did you write this book and what were you trying to accomplish as you did it? >>Dr. Bray: Well, I’ve had a lot of interest in the history of biblical interpretation for quite a long time. In 1994, I think it was, or maybe ’95, I published a history of biblical interpretation which won a prize actually from Christianity Today at that time. And is still in print 25 years later. So, that was my introduction to the subject, really. But I’ve also been involved in the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, which was done by IBP nearly 25 years ago now. And the Ancient Christian Text Series, which publishes commentaries from the Church Fathers. I’m one of the editors of that. So, I have had an involvement in this field for quite a long time. I’ve learned over the time that really you have to produce an introduction to this, because it’s a growing field of interest but a lot of people don’t know much about it, they don’t really know how to get into it. And I’ve been thinking about this for some time. And then Lexum Press approached me and said, “Would you write an introduction to it?” And that’s how this came about. It’s really designed for ordinary people, basically. To get them to think about how the Early Church read the bible. And some of it, it depends really who you are, if you know a lot about the ancient world anyhow, ancient Greece and Rome, some of the things that I say in the book won’t come as a surprise to you. There will be things you’ve heard before. But a lot of people don’t know a great deal about that. Or they may know certain things but they’ve never really connected the dots. They’ve never put it together in an overall picture. So, I’ve tried to do that. And I’ve also taken specific texts from the bible and shown how the Church Fathers read them. Not just a theory about how they interpreted in general, but specific cases, specific examples of it to show how it was actually done. >>Kristen Padilla: So, for our audience who is listening and who may not be aware, who were the Church Fathers? Who are you referring to? And why should Christians today care about how the Church Fathers read the bible? >>Dr. Bray: Well, yes, the Church Fathers technically are those who have been recognized by the Christian Church over the years as teachers of the Church, that is interpreters of the scriptures and formulators, I suppose you would have to say, of Christian doctrine, basic Christian doctrine. Today, the word is used in a slightly different sense, a broader sense. Because we would include today people who in the ancient world were condemned as heretics or schismatic’s, which would not have been the case of course at the time. And we also include people from the oriental churches. That is to say outside the Roman empire, people from Armenia, Persia, and so on. Many of whose writings were not known or hardly known until recent times. So, it is a slightly broader range. Now, we talk more in terms of ancient Christian literature generally and pay less attention to the question of heresy and schism although it’s not ignored. But we have a different approach really to this. Not least because some heretical writers, people who are heretics, at the time their writings were often recycled, slightly doctored and recycled under the names of other people. Pelagius is a good example of that. He was condemned for his doctrines. But his biblical commentaries, which are in fact very good, were preserved under the names of people like Jerome and Cassiodorus and so on. It’s only in the 19th century that researchers were going back and realized who the true author was. So, he’s been kind of recovered, if you like, in this way. And just to reassure the audience, the text as we have them have either been purged of any heretical beliefs that they may have originally contained or they didn’t contain them. They may not have been there in those particular things. So, we can read these things without really noticing the stranger beliefs for which they were condemned. So, it’s a complicated issue. Why is it important? Well, it’s important because these are the people who formulated the creeds of the Early Church, the basic doctrines of the Trinity, Christology, and so on. And of course they themselves believed that they were deriving their beliefs and their doctrines from the scriptures. And so the way they read the scriptures is important. And so we need to know how they read the bible and whether their interpretation of the bible is correct. And of course in modern times, they have been criticized in some circles for the way in which they read the scriptures. And so it’s even more important that we have a look at it carefully to see whether those criticisms are justified. It’s a complicated subject, but I think it can be said that the Church Fathers often did read the bible in ways that we would not read it today. But in formulating Christian doctrine, they stuck to what was clear and obvious and literal. And that was the basis of the doctrine. Then the oddities, which we come across, usually are the result of trying to apply those doctrines to texts that don’t really talk about it, because they believed that once a doctrine was established, particularly if it was to do with Christ, that everything in the bible would somehow support it. And the idea that there would be passages in the scriptures which didn’t really talk about that was hard for them to absorb. So, they would read into texts references to Christ which aren’t there. This sort of thing. And so we can reject that, but that doesn’t actually change what they had to say about Christ, because what they had to say about him was based on other texts. It was interpreting the obscure parts of scripture in the light of the clear parts. And of course that’s a principle that we still follow today. Even if we don’t pursue it in quite the way that they did. So, it is extremely important that we should know what they had to say. >>Doug Sweeney: I have a question for you, Dr. Bray. It’s related to what you just said. One of the things we learn from our teachers when we study ancient and medieval approaches to interpreting the bible is that over those periods of time the ancient and medieval periods there was a pretty standard fourfold method of interpreting the bible that came to be practiced quite widely. Sometimes it’s referred to with the Latin word quadriga, the word that refers to the four horse chariot that was supposed to carry biblical interpreters forward. This is something that is not very common today. And it’s something that even our protestant reformers criticized to a certain extent. Probably something that our listeners need to learn a little bit about. Can you tell us about it? What was this fourfold method of interpreting the bible? And what should we think about it today? >>Dr. Bray: Yes. Well, the fourfold method of interpreting the bible actually started off as the three-fold method. Initially. And it’s usually attributed, the origin of it is usually attributed to a Greek writer who lived in the early third century known as Origen. Who was certainly the greatest biblical interpreter of the ancient world. Who believed that the bible speaks to the whole human being, not just to the mind. But to every part of us. He also believed that human beings were composed of three elements: body, soul, and spirit. Therefore the scriptures could be interpreted in a way that corresponded to that. So that you had the bodily interpretation, which he would say was the literal surface interpretation – the history and so on of ancient Israel and whatnot. Then you would have the moral interpretation, or tropological it’s sometimes called, referring to the soul – that is to say the moral demands put on the human being to behave in a certain way. And then the spiritual interpretation, which applied to the spirit which was basically to do with our relationship to God. And interestingly enough, for Origen himself it’s the middle interpretation, the moral interpretation, which was the most important. Because it was the link between the material world, the bodily interpretation, and the spiritual world that human beings have a soul which connects us with God in the spirit world, but the soul also belongs to the body. And so it’s kind of like a mediator between the material and the spiritual. So, this is how he started. The fourth sense of interpretation, the fourth level, was introduced later by ... usually attributed to a writer called John Cassian who lived either side of the year 400. In other words, 150-200 years after Origen. And it can sometimes be called the anagogical sense, which is to do with the life of the believer in Heaven. How we will live in the Kingdom of Heaven. It’s eschatological. Origen, of course, knew about that. In that sense. But to him that was part of the spiritual interpretation. So, what Cassian did really was divide the spiritual interpretation into two parts. The spiritual interpretation to do with our relationship with God here and now on earth and the fulfillment of this in the Kingdom of Heaven. Now, you see, if you look at a concrete example, for instance, take the city of Jerusalem. Jerusalem is obviously a place. And you can go there. It’s a geographical city. And that would be the literal of bodily interpretation, that it’s actually there. But it’s also used in the bible to refer to the Kingdom of God, the presence of God, and indeed the eschatological reality, the new Jerusalem which will descend from Heaven in the Book of Revelation. So, the same concept of Jerusalem is taken right across the board. And what Origen would say is you have to look at the text to see how to interpret it in any given instance. And of course for him and indeed for most of the interpreters at the time, the more spiritual the interpretation was the more relevant it was to believers. Because I mean I suppose you could say the same thing today. In the sense that we can study about Jerusalem as a city and go and visit it and so on, but this doesn’t really make a whole lot of difference to our spiritual lives. It’s a lot of information that may be very interesting, but it doesn’t affect us spiritually. Whereas when we say things like, “glorious things of thee are spoken, Zion city of our God,” the hymns as we sing them, and the use of Jerusalem in this way, when Paul says Jerusalem which is above, which is the mother of us all, he’s clearly talking in a transcendent way. Not about the physical city. And this has a relevance to us because in that sense we’re all citizens of Jerusalem, of the heavenly Jerusalem of the Kingdom of God, if you like. And so we can make an application to our own lives and how we should live by using that kind of interpretation. So, that’s the way in which they operate it. Now of course the difficulty comes when either if you start denying some of it, if you say for instance that the literal sense has no meaning, I mean, again to take Origen as an example, when he interpreted the Song of Solomon, the Song of Songs, he said this is the literal sense, the way we read it, never existed. There is no reality there at all. It is pure allegory, pure poetry from beginning to end. Nothing to do with Solomon, the historical king, and so on. You get this sort of thing. One of my favorites is Noah’s Ark. The way Origen interprets Noah’s Ark ... he doesn’t quite deny the history. There was a person called Noah who built an ark. He doesn’t quite go that far, but he’s not interested in that because ... well, you know, you and I aren’t going to find the ark or live in the ark or have anything to do with the ark. So, how do we relate to this? Well, Origen discovers by reading the text that the ark apparently, according to him, and this is a misinterpretation of the text, that it had three decks. The upper deck, the middle deck, and the lower deck. And the upper deck was where the really spiritual people were, they were closest to the heavens. They were exposed to the heavens. And the middle deck was for people who had made some progress in their Christian lives, but still had a way to go before they reached the spiritual perfection at the top deck. And then there was the lower deck who were basically the wild beasts who had somehow been brought into the church but they hadn’t got very far in their spiritual life. And this is how Origen interpreted it. You see? The domestic animals, the wild beasts, and so on were interpreted in this way. So, you have this. Now we’d say, “Can we interpret it like this today?” Well, obviously not like that, in that sense. However, and I think the thing that Origen said that is valid and that we do need to remember is that the church does in fact consist of different kinds of people who are at different stages of spiritual growth. And that in the end they’re all in the ark. They will all be saved regardless of how spiritual they are. You don’t have to be a deeply spiritual person. And so the thief on the cross who said to Jesus, “Remember me when you come into your kingdom.” What did Jesus say to him? He said, “Today, you will be with me in paradise.” Now that thief on the cross wasn’t exactly a shining Christian as we would understand it. I mean, he wasn’t a great evangelist or anything like that. But he professed faith and he was saved. That’s the point that Origen was trying to make. >>Doug Sweeney: I’m imagining our listeners and probably not all of them will respond to this in the same way, but I bet many of them are thinking, “Oh my goodness, this sounds so strange. This way of reading the bible. And maybe even dangerous.” So, what’s Dr. Bray telling us in this book? Is this a book about a foreign way of reading the bible that we should adopt or is there something about the way in which the fathers read the bible that you want to commend? Should we take something away that’s positive from their interpretation of the bible? >>Dr. Bray: Yes. I think you have to go back to the basic principle, which is that the bible speaks to every part of our life. To our physical life, to our moral life, to our spiritual life, and to our future life in Heaven. It has something to say about all of those things. And that we have to pay attention to that. I mean, we can’t focus so strongly on Heaven that we ignore the way we live on earth. I mean, for example, I can’t say, “Well, I’m not paying my taxes this year because I’m praying that I’m going to Heaven. I really haven’t got time to do that.” (laughs) This kind of thing. I mean, that’s maybe a caricature, an exaggeration, but there are people who are not balanced in this way, who ignore their responsibilities in one part of their lives thinking they can justify this by concentrating somewhere else and not get the whole picture. The fathers, I think, were concerned to say, “No, when you are a Christian you are born again. You have a new life. Which covers everything.” Now, when it comes to the example I’ve given you from Noah’s Ark, of course that’s not the right way to read it. So, the way they applied their basic principle to that particular text is wrong and we can’t do that. But we need to remember that principle at least the bible does address all these questions in different ways and in different places. And without trying to find everything in every verse. You nevertheless keep the whole picture in view and remember that any particular text may be more applicable to our spiritual life, like the heavenly Jerusalem for instance. Rather than the city in Israel, the physical city that’s there right now. I mean, you’re not going to get closer to God by flying to Israel and walking the streets of the old city. Nice as that might be in many ways. That’s not actually getting us closer to God. We don’t have to go on pilgrimage in that way, but we do have to pay attention to the spiritual truth that it talks about. >>Kristen Padilla: Readers, we want you to encourage you to go to Amazon and search for “How The Church Fathers Read the Bible: A Short Introduction,” which is published by Lexum Press. But before we move on, I wonder if you can answer this final question about your book. And I’m just thinking about your readers, hopefully those who are listening now will read your book. What do you hope they’ll take away from your book? >>Dr. Bray: I hope they’ll take away the sense that here were people who were really trying to make the bible come alive and be applicable to their own situation. This is something that is a constant challenge. Perhaps more so today than ever before because we have a very highly developed sense of history, of the past, and of the sense that the past is very different from the present. One of the problems I think is that the more you go into that and see how ancient customs were different from modern ones, and so on, people can so concentrate on these details that they say, “Well, this doesn’t apply to me. We don’t live like that anymore.” And you see this in the modern world in many different respects. For instance, all the questions that come up to do with sexuality and the behavior of people in that way today, you’ll hear constantly, “Oh well, back in the first century in the time of Jesus, people thought differently, they acted differently, they lived in a different world. They didn’t have the knowledge of psychology and all the rest of it that we have today. And so you know they don’t really have anything to say to us. We can’t submit to their way of thinking.” And this ignores I think the very important principle that the truth is the truth in whatever context it is expressed. And that the bible is what it is and the bible has survived in the way that it has because it’s not limited to the time and space in which it was written originally. It wasn’t just a message to the original hearers. It was a message for all time. And that our task is to show how that is so. That actually human beings haven’t changed. We’re still sinners in the way that people were sinners in the ancient world. We still need salvation. Jesus Christ is still the answer to our problems today. Even though we might express those problems in different ways, fundamentally they are the same. And the church fathers were aware of this. They knew that they weren’t carpenters in Palestine. They weren’t Jewish. (laughs) They were different in many ways. And yet the message which Jesus brought, the salvation which he accomplished in his death and resurrection, were just as meaningful to them as they were to Jesus and his disciples, the first disciples. And that’s what we have to recover. That’s what we have to emphasize. And not the distance that time and space may seem to have created. >>Doug Sweeney: That sounds like a principle, Dr. Bray, that may apply to all kinds of topics and periods of church history. Of course you’ve written many books and you’ve taught many different kinds of classes. Mostly in the history of Christianity or the history of Christian theology, history of Christian teaching or doctrine. Is there similar ongoing practice contemporary value to studying church history no matter what the topic? How do you go about teaching people about the contemporary relevance of all the old stuff that you teacher them about? >>Dr. Bray: (laughs) Well, I think we have to realize that we are the inheritors of a tradition that goes back thousands of years. I mean, whether you trace it back 2,000 years to Jesus or 4,000 years to Abraham. Or even beyond that to Adam and Eve and so on. What you see is that each generation, each time has its own approach to the issues, its own inheritance that it has to deal with. We see this in the New Testament when the apostle Paul tells Timothy, “Guard the deposit. Keep it safe. Pass it on to the next generation,” and so on. This is something which is intended for each generation to repossess, to learn from, and to deal with. And what we see over time, and I’ve shown this in different things. When I wrote my history of biblical interpretation, I took various books of the bible to illustrate what happened at different times in history, that a book of the bible which had been there all along, you might say, suddenly comes to life. And speaks in a fresh way. You see this in the 16th century with the Reformation. A book like Romans, for example, Paul’s letter to the Romans. Or Galatians, which had been there of course for 1500 years and people had read them and so on. But suddenly they speak to people in a fresh way, in a new way. And it comes to have a particular meaning that it might not have had earlier. You see this of course in the time of Jesus, the interpretation given to the prophets, to Isaiah and Jeremiah and so on, this day are these things being fulfilled in your hearing. So, what had been there for hundreds of years and have been lying not exactly dormant but hadn’t been properly fully understood should suddenly come to life and make a deep impression. That’s one thing. Another thing I believe is that over time we see the theology of the church, which again is there in principle from the beginning. Unfolds. It’s like a flower, like a tulip or something like that, which starts as an enclosed thing at the beginning and then it opens up and you see the leaves and the inner beauty of the flower. We see this in the very early church. The arguments and the preaching was to do with God the Father. As Jesus said to his disciples, “He who has seen me has seen the Father. I and the Father are one. When you pray, pray Our Father.” It’s very much this learn to call God your Father, learn to think of him in this way. And that the Creator God is the Redeemer God. The Redeemer is not a different God from the Father. That’s the sort of Early Church. And then you have concentration on the Son, on what we call Christology. The Son of God came to be a man, to live and to die and to rise again for us. And that this was the intervention if you like of God in the world, the penetration of God into his world. Very, very important thing. And this is developed of course later on in the doctrines of the atonement and so on and you see this right through the Middle Ages, Anselm and people like that, right to Luther. The whole question of penal substitution and so on. I think the third phase, the more recent phase, the whole question of the Holy Spirit. Who is the Holy Spirit? How does the Holy Spirit work? If you think in those terms, I mean, the difference between say Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, the quarrels of that ear were really about this ... I mean, how does the Holy Spirit work? Does he work through institutions? Through rituals? Through external things? Or does he work in the heart and minds of individuals? More or less regardless of the externals. I mean, not totally disregarding them, but it’s the inner conviction which is more important. And that’s where we are today, really. You can see this. This has developed over time. This has caused great division in the life of the church. But it’s also caused renewal and refreshment and expansion. So, we have to see that it hasn’t all been sweetness and light, but it hasn’t all been disastrous either. It’s a complicated business. But we are where we are. And we can’t put the genie back in the box, as it were. We can’t go back to an earlier time in history, pretending that these things haven’t happened. Because they have. And we have to live with that and we have to deal with that, and we have to try to interpret those things for our life and for the life of the church today. If we don’t understand the past and where we’ve come from, we can’t move into the future. Because we don’t know where we’re going. >>Kristen Padilla: If you’re listening and you’re very interested in church history, you feel like the Lord is leading you here, I just want to say that Dr. Bray will be teaching an elective on Puritanism this Jan Term and this summer will be teacher a course on Medieval History and Doctrine. We would love for you to come, sit in on a class, apply, be one of Dr. Bray’s students, and partake in the life of our community here at Beeson. Dr. Bray, we always like to end these shows by asking our guests what the Lord has been teaching you recently that would encourage our listeners. So, I wonder if you could end with a word of encouragement today? >>Dr. Bray: Yes. It’s always very hard to answer a question like this because I know what I think I’m learning (laughs), I’m not sure I’m learning ... or I’ve actually learnt it. (laughs) But I think what God has been saying to me recently and that’s a lot of it has had to do with my experience of the pandemic. And watching this and seeing this and living through it, as of course we all have, in the last couple of years. What I’ve learned I think is first of all to respect the sovereignty of God over all things. I didn’t want the pandemic to come. It was a big nuisance in my life. It changed a lot of things. You know, I would far rather have done without it. And I’m sure most people could say the same. But it was sent to us. And it was sent to us by God to learn that he is the one who is the master of the universe. He is the one who controls things. He can take a tiny virus that no one has ever heard of before, that no one really knows where it came from, and how it could spread in the way that it has, and yet bring the entire world to its knees, almost overnight. I mean, that is the power which is there. I think it forced on my mind the realization that my life and your life and the life of all of us is in his hands. There’s nothing we can do about that. We can’t live as if God doesn’t matter, as if God doesn’t exist. He will barge into our lives and he will make his priorities known. Whether we like it or not. Now, starting with that, that may sound very negative but actually it’s not, because you look at this and you say, “Well, what are my priorities? What am I trying to do?” I’ve got my agenda, I’ve got my wishes. I’ve got my things that I want to do and God has closed those doors for whatever reason. And I have to sit and be patient and wait on him. And in doing that, sort of find how I can be of service within this context that I haven’t chosen. You know? And I had no desire to experience. But nevertheless it has happened. And in different ways I’ve seen how God has worked in my life, giving me much greater patience, much greater sense of dependence on him, but also opening doors of opportunity and so on. I mean, I’ve been able to speak to people ... my neighbors and whatnot about life and death and about getting right with God in a way that I probably wouldn’t have been able to do otherwise because they wouldn’t have asked those questions, the whole subject wouldn’t have come up. I’ve seen it here at Beeson. I mean, I’ve been able to be of service to Beeson in a way that wouldn’t have happened if it hadn’t been for the pandemic. I mean, that sort of came in and so on. So, I could be used in a particular way for a particular time. And I’m grateful to God for that. I mean, it wasn’t planned. It wasn’t something I particularly wanted. And yet by submitting to his will and saying, “Right Lord, this is the time, this is your time. What do you want me to do with this time? How can I serve you in this context?” So, I’ve learned I think a lot about that and I look forward to the future because I say, “Well, I haven’t got that much time left. I don’t know how much time. But realistically maybe ten years, maybe 20 years, but probably not much more than that at the most. And what am I going to do with it? How am I going to use that time?” It’s concentrated my mind very much on this. I find myself praying much more for guidance, that each day will be a day which will be consecrated to him, consecrated to his service, and Lord make me use the time that I have that you’ve given me for your glory. I’m much more aware of that now on an everyday basis than I would have been, say, two or three years ago. I mean, if you’d asked me two or three years ago of course I would have said, “Oh yes, naturally.” I would have said all the right things. But it’s come home to me much more on a daily basis, I’m much more conscious of it. And I’ve felt his presence much more. Now I just say, “Well, whatever tomorrow brings.” And who knows? I mean, we don’t know. But whatever tomorrow brings, I know that he will be there. I’m trusting him more for that. I’m more conscious of it than I was before. So, I thank God for that. I just share that with people because I’m sure everyone I’m talking to right now has had the same general experience. The last couple of years have changed all our lives. And I would just say to people, “Well, have you realized that this is a gift that God has given to you? Painful though it may seem in many ways, and may be in many ways, nevertheless he’s drawing you closer to him by making you more aware of his power, of his sovereignty, and of his love - that he wants to use this to draw you closer to him.” I would challenge people and say, well, can you make that a reality in your life? That’s what I’m trying to do. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s a great challenge. Teach us to trust and follow you, Lord, and to number our days. You have been listening to Dr. Gerald Bray. He is Research Professor here at Beeson Divinity School. Come and join us sometime, take a class with Dr. Bray, we would love to have you with us on campus. Thank you, listeners, for tuning in. We love you. We’re praying for you. And we say goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.