Beeson Podcast, Episode #615 Jess Leslie and Drew Kearney Aug. 13, 2022 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. And today we continue our new series on the theme of the most recent issue of Beeson Magazine, “Singing the Faith.” With an interview of two marvelous hymn writers and worship leaders whom Kristen will introduce in just a minute. We are excited to say that our fall term is almost here. Lots of exciting things are about to be happening here on campus. Our weekly worship services will begin on August the 30th. Our Beauty of God conference will take place in October. Our many centers and institutes and initiatives have events open to the public. Visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/events to learn more. And please register as well for our new e-newsletter on which Kristen has been working very hard. Sign up at www.BeesonDivinity.com/media. We are grateful for your friendship and want to keep you abreast of all the wonderful things that the Lord is doing here. Kristen, do you want to say a word or two about these fine musicians sitting here with us? >>Kristen Padilla: Sure thing. We have on the show today Jess Leslie and Drew Kearney. Jess is a Beeson student and worship leader. She is actually helping Zack Hicks who leads our Tuesday chapel worship team to plant a new church here in Birmingham. Drew is the worship pastor from Mountain Brook Community Church. For our listeners who are unfamiliar with Mountain Brook, it is a suburb of Birmingham. Jess gave me an interview for the Beeson Magazine about hymn writing and she allowed us to print the lyrics to a song she and Drew co-wrote called, “Take And Eat.” So, we thought for the podcast it would be fun to invite both of them to the show to discuss the importance of hymn writing for the church and to talk about their song. So, welcome Jess and Drew to the Beeson Podcast. >>Drew: Glad to be here. Thanks for having us. >>Jess: Thanks for having us. >>Kristen Padilla: We always like to begin by learning more about our guests and hearing your stories. So, I wonder if you can each share about where you are from, your family, your faith in Jesus Christ? And Jess, let’s start with you. >>Jess: Okay. So, I am from McCalla, Alabama. It’s about 35 to 40 minutes outside of Birmingham. I graduated high school, though, in Birmingham at a Catholic High School, which is sort of an interesting part of my journey. My parents still live in McCalla. I’m the youngest of three. The only girl. I married my husband, Alex, in 2016. And at a very young age I remember feeling what I would describe as a burden in needing Jesus. It was then that I asked him to save me and to lead me for the rest of my life. >>Drew: I’m from Baton Rouge, Louisiana originally. My wife and I moved to the Birmingham area in 2014. We’ve been here ever since. We love being here, love the city. I married way above my station to my best friend. Her name is Bekah. We have a seven year old black lab named Abida and she’s the best. And we are currently in the process of adoption. So, that’s been another crazy chapter of our journey. But I was fortunate enough to meet Jesus at a young age and grateful for that. And ever since then it’s been a beautiful, painful, sanctifying journey through doubting and wandering and God’s faithfulness, and just growing a deeper trust with him ever since. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, the two of you are both wonderful musicians and hymn writers, of course. And that’s the main reason we’re talking to you today. But you’re also music ministers and worship leaders at churches. I bet our listeners would like to hear how that happened for you. How was it that the Lord led you into worship ministry in the local church? >>Drew: The word I would say is “reluctantly.” (laughs) I’m a product of discipleship in the church. I grew up serving in the church, but I really enjoyed the background behind-the-scenes type of roles. It was in my college years that there were some faithful men and women that saw things in me that I didn’t see in myself. And so they spoke truth and life into me and allowed me to step into some grace filled positions that I could fail in and learn in and grow in and ever since then God has continued to open doors for me, both scary and painful and exciting to step through and through that ... and it’s taken me a while to catch up to it but I now believe it is what I was created to do. It’s taken me a while to see it, though. Yeah. >>Doug Sweeney: How about you, Jess? >>Jess: Well, I affirm that it is what you are created to do. >>Drew: Thanks, Jess! >>Jess: I would say that both of my parents and both of my brothers are musicians. So, from a musical standpoint I don’t know that there was a way around it. But I do always remember loving musical worship and even as a kid there were moments in church where I sang so loudly that I got in trouble. I was just very passionate about that. I think the first time I ever led worship, though, it was like one song. I was 12. And I’ve pretty much been doing it since. So, it was not a big sort of flash of lightning or loud voice from God but rather the affirmation of others within the community of the church and just a steady opening of doors for me to continue learning and growing and serving in that way. >>Kristen Padilla: Jess, you are the first person on the podcast, as our guest, who I met first on Twitter before I met in person. And the Lord has been kind to me to allow me to be a part of your journey and just such a joy to watch what God’s been doing in your life. But I wonder if you can tell our listeners how God drew you to Beeson specifically, but even just a desire to gain theological training after you’d been serving in worship ministry for a number of years. >>Jess: When I was finishing high school I had great interest in attending seminary. But I didn’t really think it was in the cards for me. I didn’t know what I would do with a seminary degree. And the only women I had known that went to seminary went on to be missionaries. And at the time I didn’t really sense a call to serve overseas. So, I just kind of assumed that seminary was out of the question. But in 2018, by the time that year rolled around, I was serving part time on staff at our church at the time, leading worship. And really felt like I needed more training and equipping and had guides and friends that had been involved in worship and discipleship school, known as 10KFAM, which stands for 10,000 Fathers And Mothers. And the whole thrust of 10KFAM is to train worship leaders from just leading songs to worship ministers who lead people. It was founded probably 15 years ago by Erin and Megan Keys, who recognized that there’s a centuries old well worn path for people who feel called to be lead pastors, senior pastors, to receive training. But where are worship leaders and worship pastors being trained? The reality is that often worship leaders, worship pastors are given an opportunity to lead because they can carry a tune and maybe play an instrument. So, while the church doesn’t need less than that, the church does need more than that. So, I was serving on staff at church at the time it became clear to me that I needed more biblical artistic and skillful training. So, when I went through 10KFAM it essentially just resurrected this long existing burning within me to pursue seminary. Again, through a convergence of many small things the Lord made it clear that I was supposed to do that at Beeson. >>Doug Sweeney: How do you two think about the role of the worship pastor or the worship leader in congregational life? What’s the relationship between what it is that you do and what it is that the preaching pastor does on Sunday morning? And any advice for people who are considering the possibility that maybe this is something the Lord might have for them down the road? >>Drew: Jess? >>Jess: I think for me to answer that question I would take a step back and ask what is the role of the gathering of the people of God in general. And so I think the answer to that question for me has a lot to do with creating a space for God’s people to receive Jesus in word, song, and sacrament. So, for the worship leader, being part of that process of having the gospel of Jesus applied to our wounds, our sins, and our broken hearts – and so I think the best worship leaders are able to honor what real life looks like ... you know, lament, disappointment, doubt – all of those things. The highs and the lows. But also reminding the people of God that Jesus is really enough for all of your life. >>Drew: So eloquent. Man. [crosstalk 00:09:14] >>Jess: I’m just reading. Just kidding. >>Doug Sweeney: Can you follow that up, Drew? >>Drew: Probably not. >>Jess: Good luck. >>Drew: It is crazy to think that in a gathering of the corporate church the worship pastor oftentimes has the same amount of time on a microphone as whoever is preaching that day. And so it’s not something to be taken lightly. But it is so formative for the church. I think the biggest thing that I’ve been challenged in and try to put into practice is to not stand on any kind of personality, to not stand on any kind of gifting, but we have to stand on the word of the Lord and let God’s word be our authority, and let God’s scripture drive the way that we worship acceptably as Hebrews calls us to do. Simply put, I think it’s being a lead worshipper in the presence of other worshippers. Pointing people to Jesus and doing your best to get out of the way. As best as you can. >>Kristen Padilla: You both write hymns in addition to leading worship and I would love to know what has drawn you to the writing process of new hymns for the church? And why the church needs new hymns? So, Drew, I wonder if you want to go first on this question? >>Drew: Absolutely. I’ve heard it put that the old song gathers and the new song propels. And so in our corporate times there’s old songs that we can gather around, almost like a warm fire as we remember, and there’s new songs that propel us into deeper faith and to deeper trust, and to deeper obedience. And the Psalms call us to do both. To sing a new song to the Lord and to always remember the joy of our salvation. And so in doing that, that’s what kind of has drawn me to attempting, I guess, the process of writing music. And I think it’s powerful to just communities to write and to sing about what God is doing in their lives as an encouragement to that community, even if these hymns, these songs, are never heard by anyone outside of a small circle. To be able to testify as a group of believers, even in the smallest of spaces, I think is what God calls us to. >>Jess: That is good, Drew. >>Drew: Thanks, Jess. >>Jess: I think, first, a low hanging fruit kind of answer is that, yeah, the scripture does command it and gives freedom and sort of empowers us to do that. I think Ephesians 5 comes to mind, speaking to one another with Psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. I also think that as image bearers of God we’re co-creators with God. And this looks different for everybody, but in this context as worship leaders, I think that means writing songs. But also as Drew said, there is something I think really special about singing songs in a community that were birthed within that community. Regardless of whoever hears it, ever, I think there’s a special way that the Spirit uses that to minister to the people there. >>Doug Sweeney: Wow. So, how do you do it? What’s the process like? The artistic- [crosstalk 00:13:11] >>Drew: I thought you were supposed to tell us that. (laughter) >>Doug Sweeney: No, no, no. I have never written ... how do you go about it? Do you have a method? Or you don’t have a method? How does one go about writing a new hymn? >>Drew: It is a work in progress, where I’m growing in this and it will take me a lifetime to really grow into. But it’s not waiting for inspiration to hit, but posturing myself through the discipline of it so that I can be ready for when inspiration does hit. It’s like putting up sails on a ship and just being ready to catch the wind whenever it may blow. And so that, for me, looks like intentionally carving out hours of the day or days of the week or weeks of the month to sit down and just to write and let the Creator be a little bit louder than the critic, which is very, very hard for me. And the practicality of it, a lot of it looks like writing a lot of junk that will never see the light of day. But the more junk that we can get through there’s more treasure that we can find in the discipline of it. And partnering with someone else can breathe fresh life on the process, too. And so that’s why ... I mean, I love writing with Jess. She’s one of my favorite songwriters of all time; incredibly gifted in that area and when you write with someone else, a lot of is just bringing a bunch of broken disjointed pieces to the table and often it’s somebody else that can help put them together in a way that you never thought was possible. And it’s hard to hide when you’re co-writing, too. You have to bring the bad with the good. It’s very sanctifying. >>Jess: Yeah. >>Doug Sweeney: What do you think, Jess? Same thing or do you have a slightly different way of doing it? >>Jess: Yeah, I think truly like Drew said I think the best songwriters are disciplined songwriters. And I have to confess, since I started at Beeson I have not written as much as I normally would have. >>Drew: How dare you. >>Jess: It’s not like I’m not doing anything else. But not waiting for inspiration, instead tilling the soil, sowing the seed, and waiting for the rain to come. And waiting for the Lord to give the growth, if you will. So, I mean, typically for me what happens is that a theme will come to mind or a line or sometimes a melody will come. And we’ll just try to go from there. Everything is better when writing with another person, I think. One, it is humbling and sanctifying, but also takes the pressure off to feel like I have to perform or achieve or do something magnificent by myself. And I think the humility of sharing ideas with others gives more room for the spirit to use their gifts and use your gifts together in collaboration to create songs that build up the church, which is ultimately the best goal. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, as I’ve already mentioned, a song that you co-wrote called “Take and Eat” was featured in the magazine. And I must tell you that my son and I love listening to it. I think I have it almost memorized by now. It’s a beautiful song. But I wonder if you can tell our listeners how this song came to be, what it’s about, and what you’re trying to communicate through the lyrics of this song. >>Jess: I’m going to tell what I remember and you hop in if this is wrong. >>Drew: Deal. >>Jess: So, “Take And Eat” has proven to be a special song, which has really been a gift. It’s very humbling. But the idea came actually during a songwriting assignment that I had for 10,000 Fathers & Mothers. And I had heard a sermon years ago that connected the serpent’s invitation in the Garden of Eden to take and eat with Christ’s invitation to take and eat at the Last Supper. And the chorus came first, as sort of the link between those two scenes and then I had a few ideas for what’s another scene that this applies? And scripture gives us a few to choose from. But I didn’t really know whether it had legs or not and so I shared it with Drew. And he thought there was something to it. Then we finished it together. That’s kind of how it happened. Right before COVID. >>Drew: Yeah, right before. And I felt really honored to be asked in on the process, because I kind of nerd out when it comes to deconstructing songs and studying songwriters and why did they make this decision over that decision. And all of my favorite songwriters, practically speaking, they’re able to take one chorus and approach it in two or three different ways. Just come down two or three completely different avenues. And so this provided me an opportunity to do that but in the context of scripture and I love what Sally Lloyd-Jones says in the Jesus Storybook Bible, and I do get the irony that I’m sitting at a prestigious divinity school and I’m about to quote the Jesus Storybook Bible. >>Doug Sweeney: Oh, we love it. >>Drew: Okay. I have a lower IQ, so I have to read below my station. But she says that there’s lots of stories in the bible but all the stories are telling one big story – the story about how God loves his children and comes to rescue them. And so to have an opportunity to look at the story that’s being told, a similar thread woven out of all the scripture as a whole, it was a really sweet experience to be able to collaborate on such a cool idea that Jess brought to the table. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s wonderful. So, our friends, would you mind singing the song for us? >>Drew: Sure. >>Jess: Yeah. [acoustic guitar] There is goodness in the garden Where God is breathing out his glory Where the river sings the story of The beauty he has shared with us There's a serpent in the garden He's chasing down creation He is twisting every craving with The fruit of fear and he says Take take and eat Three little words that turned The whole world upside down There is silence at the table They recount the ages past Over centuries of wandering and Searching for the Lamb of God There is sadness in the Savior He tries to tell of what's to come He pours a cup of wine And as He breaks the bread He says The banquet doors are swinging wide The Bread of Heaven is alive The grave it howls of hunger pains The Bread of Heaven breathes again There's forgiveness by the fire Blazing on the shoreline They can't deny the Lord's alive Their hope reviving with the rising Son Messiah murdered on the mountain And now He feasts within their midst The One who passed away's alive And now He's passing plates and he says >>Kristen Padilla: Thank you, Jess and Drew, for that beautiful song. And listeners, if you want to hear it again, of course you can listen to it on the podcast, but it’s also on YouTube and iTunes and Spotify. So, I encourage you to go back and continue to listen to it. Well, we always like to end the show by hearing what the Lord has been teaching our podcast guests. So, is there something that the Lord has been teaching you or saying to you that would edify our listeners as we close out the show? Drew, would you like to go first? >>Drew: In recent weeks, the Lord has been leading me back to Psalm 16 over and over again. Just as a reminder of in seasons of comparison and when I’m not content and when I’m angry just to remember that the boundary lines have fallen for me and pleasant places and right there to rest in knowing that apart from God there is just simply no good thing. And that’s why we can say that in his presence, it’s not just joy but the fullness of joy. Personally, I’ve needed that reminder a lot in recent weeks. >>Jess: I would say so many things are changing, or feel like they’re changing or being disrupted about church and about ministry. And so many pastors and church leaders are burned out and brokenhearted and discouraged. Something that continues to come to my mind is just that Jesus is still on his throne and he’s still building his church. So, in a moment where the darkness within churches and church leaders is being exposed in a way that it should be. There’s still countless men and women whose names we’re never going to know, they are doing the long and slow patient work of making disciples. So, faithfulness does not make the news, but it does make the Kingdom of God. So, for all those tilling the soil in places where you feel overlooked, unnoticed, be encouraged that the Lord is using you to build his church. >>Drew: That’ll preach. That’s awesome. >>Doug Sweeney: Amen. Friends, you have been listening to Jess Leslie, she is a current Beeson student, a worship leader. If you’ve ever participated in chapel services with us via live stream or in person you may well have seen her at the piano. You could probably picture who she is. She’s helping our good friend, Zack Hicks, to plant a church these days in town. And her partner in hymn writing, occasionally, is our other guest today, Drew Kearney, he is the worship pastor of Mountain Brook Community Church. We are grateful to both of you for being with us and for your ministries, more importantly. And to our listeners, we say we love you, we’re praying for you, and goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.