Beeson Podcast, Episode #614 Dr. Kenneth Mathews Aug. 9, 2022 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I am your host, Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. Last week, we started our new podcast season by launching a series of interviews on the theme of the most recent issue of Beeson Magazine, “Singing the Faith.” You can read the whole magazine online at www.BeesonDivinity.com/BeesonMagazine. We spoke last week with Tyshawn Gardner, a Beeson alumnus, a new professor at Samford, on the role hymns have played in African American Christianity. This week, we continue our “Singing the Faith” series with a guest who has written on worship in the Old Testament. Before Kristen introduces him, let me remind you that we’re just under a month away from a new fall semester. We have a lot of exciting events and happenings at Beeson. If you are interested in staying up to date with what’s going on we have a new e-newsletter for you. Visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/media to subscribe and stay abreast of all that God is doing here. All right, Kristen. Who is this dear friend, sitting next to you, ready to inform us on the theme of biblical worship? >>Kristen Padilla: Thanks, Doug. Today on the show we have Dr. Kenneth Mathews. Dr. Mathews has served on our faculty since 1989, teaching Old Testament and Hebrew. And just recently retired at the end of this academic year. Dr. Mathews contributed an article to the Beeson Magazine and was interviewed by me about his tenure for the issue. So, we asked Dr. Mathews to come on the show today to reflect on his time at Beeson, to discuss worship in the Old Testament, and to tell us what he is looking forward to next in retirement. Dr. Mathews, thank you for coming on the show today. It’s so good to have you. >>Dr. Mathews: So enjoyable to be here. I love to be on campus, see friends like yourselves, Dean Doug and also Kristen, two people who really make this place shake. (laughter) And so it’s good to be here. >>Doug Sweeney: Shake in a good way. >>Dr. Mathews: Oh, absolutely. (laughter) That’s true. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, you are a dear friend, as Dr. Sweeney has already said. And as we begin, we wanted to take this opportunity to allow our listeners to get to know you better. So, would you mind giving us a glimpse into your life? Anything that you want to say about your childhood, coming to faith in Christ, your wife, family? >>Dr. Mathews: Okay. Well, I’m a Texan. Growing up in Texas, we thought we were pretty big stuff. In fact, we were a little challenged by Alaska coming into the United States. But the joke was, “Well, just wait till the snow melts. And then we were in good shape.” But Dallas is not the Dallas people think of. I was reared in Dallas. I did most of my education in Dallas. The Dallas I was reared in, in the 1950s and 1960s, that was before we had the Dallas Cowboys. That’s before we had DFW Airport. And so much of what became the megaplex, Dallas/Forth Worth. DFW was not built until 1974. I was 24 years old. Love Field was our place. I guess the most memorable thing in terms of my childhood was in 1963. I was 13 years of age. We were given an opportunity at school to go downtown and see the President, John Kennedy. So, Buddy and I did just that. Jumped on a bus, went down there. We enjoyed seeing the President but also we took in a hot dog and a movie as well. But I’ll never forget the trauma of the city, and of course it raced across the world in 1963. Something I’ll not forget. In the subsequent events that immediately followed. It was the same year, if you recall, for the March on Washington by Dr. King. 1963 was an important year in my life. So, that’s in my mind. And so much of what we had in that life was definitely ... I guess I would say it was a church culture. And it was very civil. It was not the Deep South. Boy, did I have an awakening when I came in 1989. The Deep South. The scars of racism were so deeply imbedded and are deeply imbedded. I guess I was just out of touch, maybe as a teenager. I didn’t pay as much attention. It seems that in Dallas we did not have that kind of tension like I felt when I came here. In fact, my wife spent five years in San Antonio. The racism there was against the Hispanic community more so than the Black community. So, those kinds of things come to my mind. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. Mathews, I have found that out in the churches lots of people are very impressed by anybody who can read the Old Testament in Hebrew. We both know that lots of first year seminarians are very frightened of their Hebrew professors. Here we have a real live Hebrew professor sitting at the table with us. (laughter) Tell us a little bit about how you got interested in studying Hebrew and the Old Testament. Did you grow up thinking, “I’m going to study Hebrew?” Did you fall into it? How did it happen? >>Dr. Mathews: Well, there was some falling involved. One thing I point to is my mother was a teacher of Sunday School. She started when she was 17 years of age. I think that when she turned 93 or so she decided to let that go. She felt so sorry for those old people. Anyway, I remember so many Saturday evenings – she’d be giving herself to her study for the next day. She loved history. She loved the Old Testament. So, I think I got some of those vibrations. And then when I was in seminary I just seemed to do better, maybe because of focus or investment in Old Testament and in Hebrew. So, that’s how that came to pass and it turned out that it was a rich and enriching preparation I’ve done in my whole life. >>Kristen Padilla: Tell our listeners, for those who don’t know, about your work in the Dead Sea Scrolls. >>Dr. Mathews: Well, just as a reminder, the Dead Sea Scrolls were the most important discovery in the 20th century. These scrolls were located near the Dead Sea in the Honeycomb Cliffs that overlook the northwest corner of the Dead Sea. And they contained both biblical manuscripts and also sectarian non-biblical manuscripts. These were produced, we think, by a mixture of various ideas, like what you would find among the [inaudible 00:08:36], the Sadducees, and the Pharisees. So, we just call them Kumran-ites because the location at the floor of the caves was Kumran. So, these are the Kumranites. The 11th cave was searched out in 1956. And from it came a cache of important manuscripts. They were assigned in 1967 when the Israelis took over the Rockefeller, old city. Rockefeller Museum. At that time the Jordanians had control, but it passed over to the Israelis. One of the scholars that received a manuscript of the Book of Leviticus, David Knowles Freedman, who was an editor people may know of the Anchor Bible Commentary Series. The Anchor Bible Dictionary, he was editor of it. And he was given the opportunity to study that firsthand. Well, I studied with him. (laughs) And so that’s where you have the saying, “I fell upstairs” on that one. So, I suggested to him that maybe he could get that off his plate if he’d let me have it on my plate. So, I worked for two, two and a half years, on that scroll from photographs and then being in place. And then we co-authored it as monograph. So, that is on the Book of Leviticus and the paleography, the spellings, the nature of the leather, all pointed to it being probably the oldest witness we had to the Book of Leviticus. And it wasn’t a full scroll, like the great Isaiah scroll. Like most of the scrolls, it was a scroll that was maybe a yard in length and then a whole bunch of pieces. And so the date on that would have been about 100BC. So, I studied from a variety of angles, such as its spelling patterns, paleography, it’s textual readings. So very close to what we already have. It was 1,000 years later. So, it was an encouragement from that perspective. But it’s not surprising it was exact as the very same. There were some distinguishing marks about it. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s fascinating. Wish I could have been there with you. >>Dr. Mathews: Yes. I could have used your help. >>Doug Sweeney: I have a different kind of history question for you. A little bit more modern history. You know, as you’ve been retiring this year, we’ve had occasion to reflect on the history of Beeson Divinity School a number of times. And I have found myself saying to groups of people that Dr. Ken Mathews is a pillar of this place. He along with Dr. Frank Theilman was one of the first two full time permanent faculty members who were brought here by Dr. George. Beeson was founded in ’88 and you arrived in 1989. Why did you come? What was it about either Dr. George and his winsomeness? Or the vision he cast for what he felt like the Lord wanted to do through Beeson Divinity School that was a strong enough enticement to get Ken Mathews to come to Birmingham? >>Dr. Mathews: Well, I guess like most things in life, there are a number of factors that come together at just that right moment God times. One thing that was very attractive to me was it was a novel enterprise. Maybe not uniquely novel, but how in the world in those years would a university dare to start a divinity school. That’s an Aquarian. It’s quaint. But we really don’t need any of those to progress in our knowledge, our advanced ideas. Well, that didn’t hinder Mr. Beeson. Mr. Beeson was all about promoting the Kingdom of God through what he loved, the church and education, in particular Christian education. So, what was attractive about it was what I had heard Dean George say from time to time, “it was an experiment.” Here was the founding of a divinity school that was interdenominational, founded on a historically Baptist campus university, and it was also thoroughly evangelical. And its curriculum was not precisely an imitation of what had been the traditional curriculum, but very close to it. With its emphasis on the things that I felt like I was best prepared to contribute, and that would be biblical studies and the study of the languages, and helping people be better preachers and servants to the church. And although I’d had opportunities to go into programs where PhD work was very important, and I did do some adjunctive work in that. I never really had a heart for it. My heart was always for the church and how that was being supported by Christian education in particular the study of the scriptures. And to do so with a greater competency. My goal was not to form myself in them, but rather that they could use the Hebrew and Greek tools effectively, they could read commentaries intelligently, and things of that order. But you have to have that equipment to do the surgery. And so that’s what attracted me. Of course it was well funded at that time. And don’t let that put anybody off. You want to keep funding, ‘cause we kept growing. And funding is important for us to expand our programs and ideas – what the Lord has for us to do. And then of course Dean George is a remarkable leader. And we rallied around him in those early years. And our students took a step of faith by going to a new school. And as a result they had a real intentional commitment. It was not a convenience for all of them. And it was these students who were really open to the way in which God had worked through their church historically, a great emphasis that we find in our school, to all the good. I love my seminary that I attended. I was very helped by it in every way. But it was not emphasizing, I think, our great historic tradition in the church. The chapel itself is a tribute to that. And our curriculum in history and doctrine. It’s a beautiful way in which we are teaching theology. And Dean Doug could speak much more in a lengthy and informed way about all of this. But I found everybody coming on the faculty really appreciate that. And it’s been a growing experience. I went to a non denominational seminary. And I was reared in a Southern Baptist environment. So, I was very intrigued and open to other denominations and knew that if I came here I would learn a great deal about my brothers and sisters in Christ and other venues, other places of service, and I have really grown through the years just listening and overseeing the shoulder of the great scholars in the other traditions. And enjoyed the core, the evangelical centerpiece around which we can all come together in a collective body. And worship, too. I mean, we have people from all kinds of ecclesial life through these decades. And if I had been, I think, in one of the denominational seminaries, I don’t think I would have heard some of these folks coming through that we’ve enjoyed; been enriched by. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, you’ve just summed up for our listeners the answer to, “Why Beeson?” Really emphasizing our distinctives and what makes us who we are. You have contributed so much of who we are in your role here at Beeson, and so grateful for your 34 years of service. Thank you. >>Dr. Mathews: Thank you. >>Kristen Padilla: Moving now to the Beeson Magazine, and the article that you contributed. You wrote an article called, “Worship in the Old Testament.” And this came from an excerpt from a longer piece that you had written for a book honoring Dr. George. So, I wonder if you can tell for our listeners about this article and what you’re trying to address as it relates to worship in the Old Testament and what we can learn from the Old Testament as Christians today, as we worship the Lord. >>Dr. Mathews: Well, I think of the Old Testament as the manger, in which our Lord Jesus rested. How can you possibly grow in any way ... I mean, you can get the most fundamental picture of Christ, Our Lord, but to grow in that you would welcome the Old Testament. Which nurtures our Christian gospel. So, in doing so about worship we’re not surprised that there is continuities (theologians like to use that term). There are lines, threads from old across the testaments to the New. And those are most readily of interest, of course, to us as Christian readers. And also there’s some differences, significant differences, discontinuities. And what I found for many unfortunately some misunderstandings to how that comes to pass. And I think the best way to understand it is how in the Old Testament there was an emphasis on the drama, the symbol, the betrayal. I spoke of it as choreography. All of the moving parts were heavy laden with meaning, significance, and when it comes to the understanding of worship in the New Testament with the founding and richness of the synagogue experience, it was only natural it would be continuity with the Early Church and its Jewish founders. So, when it comes to looking at that pattern we’ll see those continuities. Where I think there might be some confusion is that now we have in the incarnational Christ, not so great an emphasis do we on the place. That was very important in the culture of the ancient near east – the sacred place. It was very important in all religious centers. And what you’ll find I think today is again much of that in religions of different sorts. What is distinctive, unique to the Christian faith is that the meeting place with God is in the person of Jesus Christ. The place is the person. And that’s why the identity is so important when it comes to Christ. His teachings, of course, are given by God. And of great value in every way. Wouldn’t want to diminish that. But there could be people who follow his teachings but don’t follow Him. (laughs) So, that’s important for us to remember. How Jesus speaks to that on several occasions, but especially when he identifies himself as the temple. And then again in John 4 where he with the woman at the well makes it quite clear that the temple will not survive, but what he came to offer would survive in himself. So, I think we come to the Old Testament wisely if we understand we’re reading it from a great advantage. We are reading it through the eyes of Jesus and the Apostles. And they have some great commentaries when they teach and speak on how we can use their framework and their prism for understanding and appreciating and embracing the Old Testament. Some people think that the Old Testament is a history of Israel. Not really. There’s a lot of history of Israel found in there. Some would even be so bold as to say, “Well, it’s the history of the development of Israel’s religion.” Well, I guess one could say that. But really what it is, is proclamation. It is proclamation but along the lines of a narrative telling of how God’s unfolding plan and promise for his relationship at a personal level with himself through the incarnated Son. So, when I think of the Old Testament, I think of it joining hands with the New Testament. Apostles will use that term – don’t we? Prophets and Apostles. His proclamation. And that should resonate with Christian readers. >>Doug Sweeney: Indeed. Dr. Mathews, I’m hoping that the preachers and bible teachers who are listening to this podcast will hear this message clearly. It seems to me, I’ve not done a scientific study of this, but I’ve been to church many times. It seems to me the vast majority of Christians in the world hear sermons most of the time on the New Testament. Very rarely do they get good sermons on the Old Testament. And I wonder why you think that is and whether I can draw you out maybe one step further piggybacking on the answer to the last question you just gave us and get you to give us a kind of strong word about the importance of understanding the Old Testament if we want to understand Jesus and the writings of his Apostles. What is it that Christians miss when we don’t get much preaching and teaching from the Old Testament? >>Dr. Mathews: Yes. One of the great advantages of our understanding of the way in which God works is a very effective apologetic for the Christian faith. Because it shows us a continuity in the mind of God. And that there is this continuity, this working out, through time and space, through history, of a great overarching narrative, we call it. It’s very much a story. And I think all of that is very attractive to the contemporary listener. I fear that we don’t help our listeners because we do tend to separate, segregate the Old and the New and we do so in a way that doesn’t help them understand that they are part of a great hope. You know, a lot of people talk about finding the truth, their “true selves.” And, “I’m trying to see where I fit.” And all those kinds of questions are resolved in the gospel. And I know that Henry Nouwen spoke of technology. He was writing in the ‘70s and spoke of how technology was creating a feature of society that had and was experiencing a historical dislocation. It fuels isolation. And that’s not the way God made us. God made us not to be alone, to be in community. And that’s what God himself is about. The sacred society within God himself. And that is the beauty of God and the beauty of his people. When we find ourselves in that great unfolding way in which God makes every piece, every link of his chain critical, important, personal. So, I think of a story like Ruth. She was not an educated woman. She was outside the margins, as a Mohabitis. She was critical as the ancestors of Our Lord Jesus Christ. And you can point to some of the most remarkable stories that show how God maintained that linkage from person to person. So, we find great illustrations, forerunners, of the things we hold dear. For example, when you think about the heroes of Hebrews 11, and other places in the New Testament, they talk about of course the faith of these sterling figures. And if there’s anything we need in addition to their faith, of course, is courage. These men and women of olden times in the bible, they lived in a very hostile environment. It took courage to stand in a counter cultural way. To all the pressures and demands from inside Israel and outside Israel, not to succumb. Of course they did. That’s why we have the prophets. If everybody was doing it the right way we wouldn’t have needed a prophet. Calling them back to the ancient faith of Moses and behind that, Abraham. So, we can learn a great deal about how to respond today to the cultural pressures, both within what we might call cultural Christianity and then outside of Christianity. It kind of bleeds over into what I’m going to be talking about in the lecture series, because there I want to talk about spiritual lives and what we can learn of the patriarchs. And one thing I’ve been thinking about is how they were so strikingly counter cultural. They lived in very violent circumstances. Especially when Joshua and Israel entered into Canaan. That was the most violent time. But you can go back to the patriarchs. So, for example, you have that great war that’s ascribed in Genesis 14. Kings of the west, kings of the east, engage in battle. In the midst of it, kings of the east, they kidnap Lot, the nephew of Abraham. And took him, his family, and all his possessions as booty. And raced northward and would go eastward. And Abraham had some friends who were in treaty with him and so they assisted him and they raced after and of course secured Lot and his family. Then you have that striking piece, as you know. King of Sodom comes out to meet Abraham with all of the spoils of that encounter and tries to negotiate with Abraham. And he wouldn’t have any of it. He didn’t mind the helpers. Those who were in treaty with him, in league with him, to take a portion. But he himself would not do so. He said, “I’m going to depend on the Lord for this. I’m not going to give you opportunity to boast in my enrichment.” And then there was that mysterious figure, not a Hebrew. And he appears. His name was Melchizedek. Oh, the mystery of Melchizedek. And how encouraging it must have been to Abraham. Just think about this. Everywhere he turned people were poly theists, pagan, and here he was, standing here as a person who worshipped the only One True God. How strange and unique, but here was Melchizedek, king of a major city. What we would call a gentile. And he comes forward. And they have a happy party in the Lord. And they worshipped the Lord together. How rich and rewarding would that have been to find a kinsmen in the Lord? Remember? He left his kinsmen behind. Abraham did. And in those days, kindred was everything for security, for prosperity, and for hope. But he left that behind. Where did he find it? He found it in people like Melchizedek. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, listeners, if you heard him say the lecture series, he was referring to our biblical studies lecture series that he will be giving this spring. So, we’re very happy to announce that he is going to be our lecturer for our annual biblical studies lectures. And I’m excited to hear what you have to say this spring. I hope, listeners, you’re excited. And that you will join us on campus. As we’re listening to you talk about the Old Testament in so much wisdom and passion, I can’t help but think that some of our listeners may want to find one of your books to continue to learn from you. What would you recommend to them? I wonder if briefly you can share what you’re working on in retirement? >>Dr. Mathews: Okay. I love ... I know this sounds strange to many of our listeners ... but can you believe there’s so much rich teaching to the soul in the Book of Leviticus. And I wrote a book, “Preach the Word” series, Kent Hughes. They may know Kent by his many publications in this series. And I did it on Leviticus. It was one of the most enjoyable writing projects. For many years I said to my students and our DMin students, “Well, if you can preach out of Leviticus, you can preach out of anywhere in the bible.” So, I said to myself, “Well, let’s just see if the professor can do it.” (laughs) And so that’s what I did. And writing this out. So, that would be something they could investigate. If they wanted to get kind of heavy, I have two volumes on Genesis also. I’m in the process of revising those, a second edition. And so actually that’s what I’m working on right now. I have that second volume. The first is at the printer. Should come out I guess mid fall. And that keeps me running in that way. I am teaching a series, 12 Wednesday nights, at my church. And we’re going to be talking about prayer. And those kinds of things will come to me. Now, Paul House, our professor of Old Testament, he’s going to go to the Evangelical Theological Society meeting in November. He’s asked me kindly to fill in for his classes. So, have bible, will travel. (laughter) >>Doug Sweeney: Wonderful. Well, I hate to say it, Dr. Mathews, we’re about out of time. But we don’t want to end without asking you the question we conclude all of our interviews with. We want to know what the Lord has been teaching you recently? We respect you deeply for your learning, with respect to the work of the Lord in Old Testament times. But we just heard you’re teaching a Sunday School class on prayer, and Christianity, and the right worship of the Lord isn’t just of historical interest to you, it’s a present day interest. So, what’s going on in your life and what are you learning from the Lord even as you retire? >>Dr. Mathews: I love the expression by Dallas Willard, he says, “There’s no problem with being busy, just don’t be in a hurry.” And for our own lives, our own personal lives, if we are going to experience true transformation, and in the lives of those who are engaged in Christian ministry, it’s okay to be busy, but you can’t be busy when it comes to God. You can be busy when it comes to the things pertaining to service, but when it comes to knowing him personally, and growing in that relationship with him, which is after all what we truly seek and need. It takes focus, time, and energy, and so we have to give ourselves to that time with him. Of course the holy scriptures and then a meditative spirit. An opening of your life to his work and that is what I’ve been thinking about in the last year or so. >>Doug Sweeney: Wonderful word. Wonderful way to end this interview. Listeners, you have been in the presence of Dr. Ken Mathews; one of the founding faculty members here at Beeson Divinity School; recently retired after 34 years of teaching ministry among us. What a blessing he has been and continues to be for us. Stay tuned as we announce and advertise his biblical studies lectures which will take place in our spring semester. We want to thank you, Dr. Mathews for being with us. We want to remind our listeners that we love you and we’re praying for you. And say goodbye to you for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.