Beeson Podcast, Episode #604 Dr. Mark Dever May 31, 2022 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. We are delighted to have you with us. A brief program note and then an announcement before we dive in. First, the program note. Beginning next week Kristen and I will take a short break while we plan next year’s schedule. Over the summer we’ll play sermons preached in Hodges Chapel this academic year, as a way to edify and encourage you and your walk with the Lord, and your everyday discipleship. We will be back on August the 2nd with a new interview to kick off our fall season. And now the announcement. On October 24th & 25th our Preaching Institute and Samford’s Center for Worship in the Arts will co-host a major conference entitled, “The Beauty of God: Preaching, Worship, and the Arts.” Early bird tickets are on sale now. We would love to have you with us. To learn more go to www.BeesonDivinity.com/events. All right. Today’s guest is a well known pastor and author, and a good friend to several of us here at Beeson Divinity School. He’ll be preaching soon at Beeson’s commencement ceremony. And we’re happy to have him with us on the podcast as well. Kristen, who is this man? And what should our listeners know about him? >>Kristen Padilla: Thanks, Doug. We have with us in the studio, Dr. Mark Dever. Dr Dever is a senior pastor of Capital Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D.C. where he has served since 1994. He’s a Duke graduate. He’s also earned degrees from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and Cambridge University. He is the President of Nine Marks Ministries and has taught at a number of seminaries. He’s an author. You know him probably also from Together For The Gospel. So, there are so many wonderful things that we can say about him, but we want to get to our interview. But I do want to add that he is married to Connie. And they have two adult children. Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Dever. >>Dr. Dever: Thank you, Kristen. Thank you, Doug. Good to be with you guys. >>Kristen Padilla: So, I looked back in our archives and you were on the show in 2014 with Dr. Timothy George when he was host. That was many years ago. But we would encourage you to go on our website and find that episode. >>Dr. Dever: Wow, Timothy George doing a podcast? I mean, that’s quite a thought. (laughter) Him engaging with technology like that. >>Doug Sweeney: Oh, he did well. >>Dr. Dever: Wow. >>Kristen Padilla: He was a trail blazer. This was his idea, the Beeson Podcast. As I mentioned before the show, he often liked to remind me that he was your professor many years ago at Southern. >>Dr. Dever: He certainly was a superb professor. Yeah. He actually preached in the evening at my installation. Don Carson preached in the morning and Timothy George preached in the evening. >>Kristen Padilla: Oh, that’s so wonderful. Well, for our listeners who have not heard that episode, and I’ve of course given a short bio about you, but could you introduce yourself a little bit more fully, especially telling us more about your background and how you came to faith in Jesus Christ? >>Dr. Dever: Yeah, thank you for that, Kristen. I’m from rural western Kentucky, Madisonville. Grew up in a Southern Baptist Church. I say “in” ... my extended family was there. My nuclear family was there a little. So, not in a very religious home. I, myself, became an agnostic. Seriously, I would have used that word - by the time I was ten. By the time I was 12 or 13 I had become a Christian. That was a lot of reading in those two or three years, secular philosophers and other religious texts, and concluding with the resurrection and I came to believe that Jesus was in fact raised from the dead. And by God’s grace became a Christian. I was a very active Christian in high school. And then in undergrad where I met my wife and then we got married right after that, and then we went to Gordon-Conwell. Because at the time the Southern Baptist seminaries were not very Bible believing on the whole. And Gordon-Conwell was. So, I went there. I had a wonderful time working with Roger Nicole. I was his teaching fellow. From there went to Southern to work with Timothy George. Timothy at the time was at Southern. And I had gone to a Presbyterian church during undergrad. And I knew that I did not believe in infant baptism. So, I was a Baptist. But I was kind of a reluctant Baptist. I was a Baptist who preferred Bach to Gaither. So, I didn’t feel really at home. So, I “Ugh, what am I going to do?” But I thought, “Well, this other Baptist seminary ... I read their statement of faith.” I believe that stuff. I don’t think any of the guys teaching there believe that stuff, but I actually believe that stuff. And so when people asked me, “Why are you going there? Aren’t you going to a strange place given what you believe?” And I said, “Well, I actually think that’s my house. I think these other folks are living in my house. So, I’m going to go there.” When I heard about Timothy George and I read some of his stuff I realized, “Ah, I think he believes what I think the bible teaches. So, let me just go study with him for a year or two and see what it’s like.” So, I did their ThM program, which is like a little PhD. And it was great getting to know Timothy and just became dear friends. Yeah, he’s been one of the rich friendships in my life. And honestly I think he was probably the only one that encouraged me to take the church in Washington when that came up in ’93. I was actually teaching here at Beeson. I was doing a J Term. I was living in Cambridge at the time. I had done a PhD there and was teaching there for a couple of years afterwards. Timothy asked me to come across. I taught here in ’89 or ’90. He asked me to come across again and teach either Jonathan Edwards, Introduction to English Puritanism. And it was during that time I had a free weekend that I flew up to Washington. And preached in the church there. And really felt the Lord lead me to think, “I should pastor that church.” Which I was not expecting at all. Actually, a previous time when I was teaching when you guys were still meeting over there in Reed or around there in the religion department buildings, David [DOCK-REE 00:06:46] who at the time was a vice president at Southern had come down and offered me Timothy’s old job up at Southern for when I finished. I hadn’t finished my PhD at that point. I was hopefully getting close. And so that’s what I was kind of thinking. I’d either stay in Cambridge because Connie and I loved our time there. We had a son born there. Or we would go to Louisville because Connie loved Louisville and would teach there. But it was while I was here at Beeson, teaching that J Term that then I flew up to Washington and preached in that church and I just thought, “Oh my goodness. This is what I think I’m supposed to do.” And if you visited the church at the time ... I think the reason a lot of my friends discouraged me from doing it is because it was a church that, to many people on the outside world, looked like it had passed its sell-by date. Tim Keller hadn’t made cities cool yet. For evangelicals churches moved out from city center. The White churches had moved out in the ‘60s and ‘70s. The Black churches were moving out in the ‘70s and ‘80s. It was just depopulating. It was an elderly congregation. Most of the people there had joined in the ‘40s, the ‘30s, or the ‘20s. When I got there and when I visited in ’93. And there was a collection ... the younger people were anybody under age 60. They went to Carl Henry’s, he was a member there, for 50 years. They went to his Sunday school class, “The Hilltoppers.” And that was for the young folks, which is anybody, like 18-60. I’m going to keep talking all day. >>Kristen Padilla: I do remember Dr. George taking credit for Capital Hill and you being there. >>Dr. Dever: It’s true. He was the one encourager. I went to Eden Baptist in Cambridge, England, which was a great church. And he said the thought of Eden on the Potomac is a great thought. Timothy was my one encourager to go. >>Doug Sweeney: How about it? A special providence of the Lord, as the Puritans would say. >>Dr. Dever: Amen! Good Lutherans would say that, too. >>Doug Sweeney: We would. And who knew we had so many good ties with you. [crosstalk 00:08:40] Well, Mark, as we said a few minutes ago, the reason we got you to Birmingham this time was you’re about to preach in chapel, our commencement ceremony. >>Dr. Dever: Which is a great honor. Thank you for that. >>Doug Sweeney: And we encourage our listeners to check it out online later. But for those who don’t have time to listen to the whole thing can you give them a little taste as to what you’re gonna tell us today? >>Dr. Dever: Yeah. When you’re at a commencement, you’re at a beginning. That’s the word. And as people look ahead, as a Christian, it seems like particularly they’re looking at some kind of life in ministry. I want to just speak to them about the future and the great news is the future is about the glory of God. And that’s what your life should be spent in. Whether or not you’re in full time ministry as you perceive it or something else. If you’re a Christian. And particularly if you’re in ministry your life should be all about the glory of God. Revelation 5:5-14 will be my text. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, as you think about this graduating class and many of them are about to transition into pastoral ministry and other ministry positions, what would you want them to know if they’re listening right now? They’re about to make that transition from seminary to pastoral work. What would be helpful to them? >>Dr. Dever: Look at the pastoral epistles. Spend a lot of time in I & II Timothy and Titus. Paul writing to Timothy with great love, that second letter, II Timothy, it’s such a sweet letter. Watch your life and doctrine closely. Realize that your public ministry is nowhere near as important as your private relationship with the Lord and your relationship with your family. So, if you’re going to be authentic in your following of Jesus, which is far more important than what other people think about you, you have to tend to that first. So, it’s fine that I’m going to get to do this commencement address. I’m thankful for that. It’s much more important that I had time with the Lord today in his word. I was in Matthew 28 and reading and reflecting and praying out of that. So, what I’ll do each morning is I’ll read in scripture and then I’ll try to pray for myself, my family, members of the church, and other people out of what I’m reading or reflecting on in scripture. That’s my basic pattern of my quiet time. I think that is far more important that I do in private than anything anybody will hear from me today publicly. So, I would just encourage you to ... you want to be professional in some sense. Thank God for your Hebrew and Greek teachers. But you don’t want to be professional in the sense of it becomes merely and mainly a way you pay the bills. That’s a deadly danger spiritually speaking. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. Dever, you’ve been a pastor, a church leader, an author, a seminary professor, for a very long time now. >>Dr. Dever: Really? I mean, has it been a very long time? Doug, it doesn’t feel like that long a time. >>Doug Sweeney: I think to our students you’re going to look like you’ve been around for a while. >>Dr. Dever: All right. (laughter) Doug, you couldn’t have been out of youth group for very long. (laughter) What? Are you pushing 38, 39? >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah, it’s about that. And, you’ve been a pastor and church leader over the last few years. We’re both historians and we know it’s easy to overdo the challenges of the present, we tend to take the long view. Nonetheless ... >>Dr. Dever: Doug, has anybody ever told you it’s a little weird that a Lutheran dude is hanging out with Jonathan Edwards all the time? >>Doug Sweeney: No, people love it. >>Dr. Dever: Okay. All right. I love it. I’m just thinking, wow, I wouldn’t have picked that. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah, some other time I’ll tell you why I did pick it. But I want to ask you, I set it up the way I did because I want our listeners to know you’ve been around the block. You know what you’re talking about. And you’ve been in the trenches these last few years. Which have been pretty challenging years. >>Dr. Dever: Oh yeah. I think for pastors ... We’re recording this in 2022, I would say the last two years have been the hardest, most discouraging years I’ve seen from pastors that I’ve talked to, certainly in the US and maybe around the world. >>Doug Sweeney: So, big question, tough question to deal with quickly. But what would you identify as the main challenges facing pastors and their churches these days? And what should seminaries like Beeson Divinity School be doing about it to be helpful? >>Dr. Dever: Well, just to pick apart the question for a moment. The main challenges ... those are always going to be the same. Those do not change. So, the most important thing about any truly Christian church are none of the things that distinguish it from other churches in the city that it’s in. It’s all of the things it would share with all other truly Christian churches. So, if you’re in a Lutheran church, I’m in a Baptist church, Kristen, do you want to break the tie? >>Kristen Padilla: Anglican. >>Dr. Drew: Anglican church. Okay. Let’s say that your Lutheran church preaches the gospel, some don’t. >>Doug Sweeney: It does. >>Dr. Dever: Let’s say that your Anglican church preaches the gospel, some don’t. Let’s say that my Baptist church preaches the gospel, some don’t. But let’s say they were all preaching the gospel, then these are true churches. So, the question is, “What do we have in common?” Okay. Those are the most important things about a church. Now, we’re all going to think they’re important things about our churches that distinguish us from being Anglican or Baptist or Lutheran, but we’re going to agree that the most important things are those things we have in common. >>Doug Sweeney: Amen. But we tend to fight a lot these days over our differences. >>Dr. Dever: I mean, kind of always, but yeah, that’s true. But I think the more you have your own death in mind, the more you know that this is a very short life, that even when you’re in your late 30’s, Doug, you still gotta remember the future is coming and you don’t know how long you have. We just kind of remember we’re always about to give an account. So, you never want to just sort of cheer for your team and use your denomination or your local congregation like your sports team. And my pastoral prayer on Sundays, I’m always praying for other churches. And always churches of other denominations. I’ll pray for Baptist churches but I want to pray for Falls Church Anglican, I want to pray for any bible preaching church, McLean Bible, Fourth Presbyterian, anybody that I can reach out to and pray for. That, to me, seems right for us as disciples, not of Baptists, but of Christ. It just seems appropriate. So, I always say, Kristen, to my young minister friends, “Just start with Cranmer. If you’re speaking in English, use Cranmer.” If you need to, at some point you can edit and change things. But just assume that Tyndale and Cranmer will guide you safely to anything you need to say about Jesus in public. A wedding, a funeral, an ordination, the Lord’s Supper, a baptism ... I mean, you’ve just got wonderful theological words worked out faithfully by William Tyndale and Thomas Cranmer. And edit as you need to. That’s my basic approach. That’s kind of what I try to do. So, Doug, that’s a long-winded way of saying that I think the main things facing us as the world, the flesh, and the devil. And if you mean a more journalistic question, like what is different today, and I’m happy to talk about that, I do not think those are the main things that challenge us. I think the main things that challenge us are things that we feel caught in our consciouses about when we read CS Lewis’s Screwtape Letters. Which was written almost 80 years ago now. So, I think there are recurring things, which is why you’re finding Jonathan Edwards profitable for your soul. And I find Richard Sibs profitable for my soul. And we both find Martin Luther and John Calvin profitable for our souls. Name some historical person you like, Kristen, that you enjoy reading. >>Kristen Padilla: You named them. >>Dr. Dever: All right. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah, and so your message to pastors and the people who educate them in schools like this is, I guess, “Don’t let the novelties of the day, the special challenges of the day, knock you off course.” [crosstalk 00:16:26] >>Dr. Dever: Yeah, you want to sit deep in the water. And it’s not ... So, when you’re in seminary it’s not ... you can do biblical studies or you can do historical and systematic studies. Good historical and systematic studies are biblical studies. Timothy used to love to say, “There are people who have read the bible between Jesus and your grandmother.” So, there’s lots of space in there. And those are bible readers. Bernard of Clairvoix was a bible reader. Thomas Aquinas was a bible reader. Have you looked at how much scripture is in the Suma? I mean, John Calvin was a bible reader. A lot of the 18th century Baptist preachers who were thrown in prison in Virginia for preaching – they were bible readers. So, a lot of the enslaved people were bible preachers. Listen to them. Look at them. Read what they have left in writing. And realize that they’re trying to follow Jesus, too. And they’re looking at the bible also and learn what you can from that. One project I really appreciated was when Johnny and David Gibson and Mark [inaudible 00:17:24] did three or four years ago now on Reformation Worship. I don’t know if you know that large volume they came out with? I forget who published it. Westminster Seminary may have published it. Anyway, it’s a thick volume and they just looked at liturgies from the 1520s, ‘30s, and ‘40s, most of them Lutheran, some Anglican, some Reformed. And you realize ... I read through the whole thing ... and you realize reading that, the Reformation really was what we do in church on Sunday morning. So, it’s us just thinking through, “What are we going to pray about? What are we going to preach on? What are we going to say? What are we going to confess?” And that was the recovery of that great assurance of salvation we can have in Christ. And that’s the main stuff that we always need to be worried about and concerned about. So, I don’t know if I’ve blown away your question. >>Doug Sweeney: No, you’ve answered it the way I would have answered it. But I want our listeners to hear how you would answer it. >>Dr. Dever: Well, thus we’re friends. >>Kristen Padilla: I want to hear more about your pastoral ministry and journey at Capitol Hill. You mentioned when you first came it was an older congregation. >>Dr. Dever: Like, World War II vets. Charlie [inaudible 00:18:32] was too old to have been in World War II. >>Kristen Padilla: Wow. And now it’s, from what I understand, a much more intergenerational community, a vibrant church. I think I first heard and learned about your pastoral ministry as it related to your approach to preparing to preach and how you surrounded ... I believe I’m getting this right, several ministers on staff to talk through the sermon each week. Is that correct? >>Dr. Dever: Not really. They won’t give me the time of day. Other members of the church will do that. >>Kristen Padilla: Other members. Okay. So, perhaps you can just tell us about your approach to pastoral ministry and what your tenure at Capitol Hill has been like? >>Dr. Dever: Yeah, well, on the preaching prep I’ll just say that for a minute. So, I’ve been there since ’94. My preaching prep, I’m usually an expositional preacher, so I’m usually preaching through passages of scripture. Right now I’m preaching through Hebrews this year. So, I last did Hebrews in 2000. I preached it in 13 sermons. So, now this year, 2022, I’m doing it again. But this time in 24, 25, 26 sermons. So, about half the size, length of passages, just looking at it more closely. Wonderful stuff. Challenging. Bobby Jameson, the associate pastor, did his PhD at Cambridge on Hebrews. So, I have one of the world experts on Hebrews sitting there on my staff. So, I thought this is great, I’ll teach Hebrews while Bobby is here so he’ll teach me. So, I’ll get this out of him before he goes and does something else. So, it’s been great. So, on Friday he’ll come over and tell me what the Bible says. (laughter) I’ll try to study it myself, first, and then I have in mind what it means. Yeah. And then so I’m working on the text all day. One day I’m trying to get an outline of the text and then an outline of the sermon, how I’ll approach it. That’s the hardest work. That’s some of the hardest work. But it’s so enjoyable being in the text. The second day I will get a group of guys together, usually, and we’ll go out to lunch and we will fill out what I call my “application grid,” where I have these different grids that I try to write down applications for each point of my sermon. And they won’t all ever get in the sermon, but it’s using other people’s minds to help me do that. And it’ll be evangelistic work. Gender, marriage, family, children. Individual Christian, which I think all most evangelical pastors ever preach. And then CHBC. And then any political or larger neighborhood kind of concerns. Anyway, those are some of the categories. The categories change though, right? And some of that will get into my sermon. It’s like the Puritans would just think of the different kinds of hearers. If you read through “Reformed Pastor” by Baxter, he talks about the different kind of people who are hearing you preach. And then on Saturday night I will have written it all out. And then members of the church will come over in my study and I’ll read it out. So, I’ll read out my introduction and then I’ll go around and get feedback and then argue or take changes or say, “No, I’m going to do it this way.” Or, “You don’t know that word? Okay, let me change that word.” “Bad illustration? Okay.” And they’ve saved me from a lot of really bad stuff. I’m not preaching it, I’ll just read through it, and it’ll take me about an hour and a half to do that. Some of the sisters who come give me some of my best feedback. Very sharp. And really so kind of them to give the time to do it. So, I’m usually done with that by about 10:30 at night. So, I would say my preaching is the core of my pastoral ministry. That’s the main thing that I do. I probably spend more single time on that then anything else in my pastoral ministry. Second would probably be my internship program. Third would honestly be probably managing the staff and elders. Just sort of dealing with things you need to deal with them. And so a lot of the ministry to individuals in the church that I would have done a lot in the early days, when the church was 100 people or 200 people, now – because the church is more like 600-800 people, now the other pastors on staff are doing most of that. Which I don’t really like that change, but I trust the Lord in that. And I’m doing these things. >>Doug Sweeney: Mark, I want our listeners to hear you talk a little bit about some of the larger ministries for the rest of us that you’ve had some leadership roles in. I’m thinking especially of T For G and of Nine Marks Ministry. Some of our listeners will know that Together For The Gospel has been winding down recently. I’d love to hear your reflections on it and its legacy, you hope, you pray, moving forward. And then I’d like for our folks to learn what you’re doing at Nine Marks. >>Dr. Dever: Yeah, thank you, brother. Together For The Gospel was a pastor’s conference that Al Moeller thought up, along with me and [inaudible 00:23:00] Duncan and CG [inaudible 00:23:00] and we asked two of our preaching heroes, John MacArthur and John Piper to come join us for a conference back in 2006. And [inaudible 00:23:13] and I were the [inaudible 00:23:13] and he heard about it and he said, “Hey, I want to come!” So, we threw in RC and he was great. So, the seven of us were the speakers of that first conference. So, we would have a talk, a message, then we’d all sit down and talk about it. Because that’s what we found ourselves doing at conferences anyway. And yeah, it was a great conference. The Lord owned it and blessed it. It was far more successful than I for one thought it would be. And we kept meeting every other year. And we just had our last one last week. So, I am still, even this morning, getting texts and emails from folks who appreciated it. Isaac Adams, a pastor here in Birmingham, at Iron City Church, just came out with an article this morning at his United We Pray thing on T For G, reflecting on it. Nine lessons. Nine reflections on Together For The Gospel. Yeah, it’s been very satisfying. So, we met last week for our last one. We had about 11,000-12,000 folks there. And we had really excellent messages. If you haven’t listened to them, go listen to [inaudible 00:24:09] Duncan on biblical theology. He was the last message. Go listen to Sinclair Ferguson, oh, the way he talked about the Lord meeting with us in his word when we preach. He had this wonderful anecdote about Mrs. Smith sitting in the church. And he said, “Mrs. Smith comes up and tells you afterwards what a wonderful sermon it was. And you know the sermon wasn’t that good. And so in your humility you sort of diminish the comment somehow.” He said, “But you don’t understand it’s not about you at all. The Lord Christ has been meeting with his people in his word. And she’s been having a magnificent time with him sincerely in his word. It’s not about you at all.” So, wonderful wise words like that to us. Christian Lawanda, a young brother from Kenya, preached a great message. [inaudible 00:24:50] from Philadelphia was just spectacular on the righteousness of Christ. Oh, it was so good. Greg Gilbert’s message from Louisville was so good on humility as a means to unity from Philippians. Just wonderful messages. Very thankful. >>Doug Sweeney: And tell us about Nine Marks. >>Dr. Dever: Nine Marks, that was something Matt Schmucker started, a layman in our church, who was on staff. He had wanted to take some articles that I had written in our church newsletter and put them together in a book and give them out to students like students here at Beeson. This was one of the early schools we gave it out at. Just to try to encourage them on Nine Marks of a health church. It grew from that into a series of sermons that I preached at our church and then Crossway published it as a book. And then it became more and more. Now there have been, I don’t know, 70 or 80 books under the Nine Marks imprint, printed with different publishers and they’re translated around the world. It’s basically a pastor’s cooperative. It’s pastors trying to help each other. There’s a journal four times a year that Jonathan Lehman edits very capably. And it’s trying to get pastors to write stuff for pastors. >>Kristen Padilla: I mentioned that you have written a number of books and you just mentioned that Nine Marks has published these books and a lot of them in which you have authored or co-authored. And a couple of new ones, relatively new, and I’ve noticed a theme is the church. You’re very passionate about the church of Jesus Christ, whether it’s in a book title or just these ministries that you’ve been talking about, your own ministry to the church. Can you first tell us about these books? “Why Should I Join a Church?” And, ”How Can Our Church Find a Faithful Pastor? And then what is your passion, your concern, your prayer for the church of Jesus Christ? >>Dr. Dever: Yeah. I mean, you look at the last command of Christ in Matthew’s gospel. It’s very clear that he intended his followers to go out and not just evangelize but congregationalize. So, I’m concerned in a place like the United States that many of our ideas of what it means to follow Jesus have a lot to do with ourselves and very little to do with Jesus. And the guard against that is the local church. And in order for the local church to do that effectively it needs to be healthy. I’m just using Paul’s word “sound” that he uses a number of times in the pastorals. So, I am concerned that churches look to scripture, get the gospel clear, understand what it means to be converted, understand the difference between the church and the world. If you don’t understand the difference between the church and the world, you should not be an under shepherd. You should not be a pastor. And keeping that line clear and distinct is almost your most basic job as a pastor. Trying to distinguish between the church and the world. Try to keep it clear in your own mind, in your own life, and the minds of your people, and on Christians to invite them in. That’s so much of what pastoral ministry is. And speaking, these days, as a Southern Baptist, and we’re here in Birmingham, Alabama. And you guys in two tiny little minority groups that most people have not even heard of here called Anglicans and Lutherans ... you’ll understand how bad it is when the majority expression of Christianity in a culture is so merged with the culture, that not only has it had some Christianizing effect on the culture, praise the Lord for that, but there has been just terrible ways in which the culture has morphed Christianity into that. Of course the defense of slavery for over 100 years here in Alabama and the defense of racism beyond that is just, it’s a shame to any group and particularly the one that I’m a part of. So, things like that. We just have to be aware. Those are not just things we read about in history books. Those are temptations ... and anytime you see the sin more clearly in other people’s lives than in your own life, you know there’s a problem going on. So, you’re wanting to look ... if you’re a pastor you should be looking in your own heart and understanding, “Okay, what’s going on here that’s tempting me? How am I being compromised?” I think one of the best things about reading a figure from the past, the 18th century or the 17th century, is you’re getting to have people with different problems. You know that great section of Lewis in his introduction to Athanasius on the Incarnation of the Word where he talks about the clean sea breeze of the centuries blowing through your minds. The books of the future will be just as good as the books of the past, but unfortunately we cannot get at them. You know? So, he tells us to look at the books of the past. I think that’s one of the things that we need to do and Nine Marks is trying to do that in helping pastors to look back to scripture to see what scripture says about healthy churches. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s wonderful. Thank you for your faithfulness in doing that. We always like to end these interviews, Mark, by asking our guests what the Lord is teaching them these days. As a way of edifying our listeners and encouraging them in their own walk with God. So, we ask you what is God teaching you? >>Dr. Dever: Well, thank you, brother. This morning, like I say, I was in Matthew’s Gospel. And I was staring and praying from the Great Commission there at the end. And I was looking particularly at verse 19, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” And I was thinking about particularly that command to make disciples and thinking about what it means to follow Christ. And I was just praying for myself and my wife that we would follow Christ today. That we ourselves would be intently following Jesus today. And that’s what I’ve been praying for my kids and my other family members and members of my church and other friends. And I pray that for us. That we will follow Christ today. And that the time of commencement be used to help the people follow Christ today. When we come to the Lord’s word we’re not given food for the rest of our lives. We’re given a meal. And another one, Lord willing, will be coming until he calls us home. So, we just need that kind of, “How can I follow Christ today?” >>Doug Sweeney: That’s a wonderful word. It’s a wonderful way to end our interview. It’s a prayer that we pray for our listeners to the podcast as well. You have been listening to Dr. Mark Dever. He is most importantly the Senior Pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D.C. which he served for many years. He’s also a church leader and somebody who has made a big difference in the lives of many thousands of people through ministries like Nine Marks and Together For The Gospel and others. It’s a privilege to have him here preaching to our students this morning at commencement. And spending some time with all of us. Thank you, Dr. Dever, for being with us. Thank you, listeners, for tuning in. We love you. We’re praying for you. And we say goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.