Beeson Podcast, Episode #593 Dr. Lynn Cohick March 15, 2022 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. And we are glad you’re listening in. March is International Women’s Month. At Beeson we want to take this opportunity to shine a light on the ways in which God has used women throughout the history of redemption. Today’s guest is an expert on the women of the Bible and women in early church history as well. She also happens to be a friend of both Kristen and me. We are delighted to have her on the program. Kristen, would you please tell our listeners a little bit about her? >>Kristen Padilla: Yes. Thank you, Doug. Hello, everyone. We have with us today, Dr. Lynn Cohick. Lynn is Provost and Dean of Academic Affairs at Northern Seminary in Chicago. She is a well known New Testament scholar, having published a number of books, including a commentary on Ephesians and the New International Commentary of the New Testament, and Philippians in the Story of God Bible Commentary. She’s also written a couple of books on women in the Bible and early church that we’re going to talk with her about today. Then I’m most proud to say that she’s an Advisory Board member of Beeson’s Center for Women in Ministry. So, thank you, Lynn, for coming on the show today! >>Lynn Cohick: Well, thank you so much for inviting me and, yeah, we know each other from way back. Sometimes we talk about being old friends, but I’m of the age now where I don’t say “old friends” anymore. It’s a little too ... actually this morning I was listening to a podcast about news items and it happened to be on the strike of major league baseball. And one of the things I know about Doug ... I don’t know if you remember this, but one of the earliest conversations we had was about your love of baseball. >>Doug Sweeney: That must have been when my son was playing a lot. >>Lynn Cohick: That’s right. I remember you talking about that. And I don’t really have a love for baseball but knowing that we’d be talking today my ears perked up. And I hope by the time this podcast airs the potential strike will not materialize and opening day will start on time. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, I remember, Lynn, you and I met over dinner at one of the annual meetings. I don’t remember if it was ETS or SBL but just immediately loved talking to you and finding a kindred spirit. So, it’s a joy for both of us to have you on the show today. We always like to begin by learning more about you and I know you’ve been on the podcast before with Dr. George when he was host. But for those who have not listened to that episode, I wonder if you could introduce yourself, tell us a little bit more about where you are from and what you are up to these days? >>Lynn Cohick: Yeah, well, thank you. Thanks again for inviting me on to this great podcast. I was born in Pittsburgh and so I kinda feel like that is my hometown, even though I didn’t grow up there but my grandparents did and we took summer trips there as a family. But I grew up in Pennsylvania, more in the central part of Pennsylvania. My parents still live there. My husband also grew up in that area. But about 2000 we moved to Wheaton, Illinois, just outside of Chicago. That’s where we are living now in another suburb, but also in Chicagoland. So, I would say for the last 20 years I think of Chicago as my home. And what am I up to now? Well, as my administrative responsibilities increase I’m up to my eyeballs sometimes in curriculum or load sheets or (laughs) ... but I’m also having a lot of fun here at Northern Seminary starting a new MA in Women in Theology. And next fall a Doctor of Ministry in Women Theology and Leadership, which connects so much with what Beeson is doing as well with the Center there. So, it’s exciting to see just how this conversation about women serving in the church has just ignited in a variety of places around the country. It’s exciting. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s a great segue to my next question. Kristen mentioned at the top of the show, Dr. Cohick, that you’ve written several books. But there’s a couple of them that deal with women in particular. One is called, “Women in the World of the Earliest Christians.” One is called, “Christian Woman in the Patristic World.” Would you tell our listeners just a little bit about how you became interested in these subjects and why you wrote those books? >>Lynn Cohick: Sure. Thank you. Well, “Women in the World of the Earliest Christians,” which I did I think in 2009 is when it came out, that was my response to a book that one of my advisors in graduate school had written. Her name is Ross Kramer. And she wrote a book called, “Her Share of the Blessing.” And it was part of her own research into the religion of the Greco-Roman world, especially women ... it’s women’s religion and religious experiences in this first century AD, Jewish, Pagan, and looked a little bit at Christianity. And I loved her book. I wanted to put the ideas that she had, the history that she was unpacking, put it in a context or in a key ... maybe I should say it that way ... in a key that my students and my fellow evangelicals would be better able to connect with. So, thinking about women at this time in relation to what women were doing in the New Testament. So, I wanted to bring all this great information that was coming to light from the 1980s, 1990s, early 2000s, and put it in a format that evangelicals could access. The idea was sort of that when you go in to look at a biblical text, let’s say the Canaanite woman coming to Jesus and asking that he heal her daughter. What would be the cultural dimensions of that interchange? That was what I wanted my book, “Women in the World of the Earliest Christians,” to kind of set up. So, I wasn’t going to exegete the biblical text so much as kind of say, “Here is the social dynamics. Here are the cultural dynamics.” To help people kind of step back in time 2000 years. (laughs) >>Doug Sweeney: Lynn, what about your other book, “Christian Women in the Patristic World?” What were you doing in that one? >>Lynn Cohick: Right, so, the “Christian Women in the Patristic World” grew out of my sense that you either have a love or a hate of (laughs) the Church Fathers, the time after the New Testament, the couple of centuries maybe through the fifth or sixth century where the Church is getting formed and you have the councils, you have the creeds produced, it goes from being a persecuted minority to being one of the religions of the empire. And there’s a lot of misinformation I think about how the Church at that period treated women, or how women lived out their faith. And I remember when I was in graduate school, two particular experiences that really fueled my desire to write on it. The first was I did a paper on Julian of Norwich, who lived in the late 14th century. And she wrote a book based on her vision. It’s called, “Showing.” And she talked about Jesus Christ as our true mother. And she was reflecting on how the Eucharist or communion is our spiritual food and how Jesus feeds us. But her image was Jesus Christ as our true mother. And that was such a beautiful picture and there’s some other really great things in her recounting of her vision that were theologically rich. And I thought, “Why don’t I know about this woman? She’s an incredible theologian.” And then I had another experience reading Tertullian. And he lived right around the late 100s into the 200s. And he is famous or infamous for saying that, “Women are the devils gateway.” And he writes this in a treatise that’s entitled, “On the Apparel of Women,” or “On the Clothing of Women.” And he’s talking specifically about Eve and how she sinned and kind of opened the door then, that she was the Devil’s gateway, she opened the door for sin to enter into the human experience there at the garden. Well, you know, that’s quite unflattering. (laughs) You know? What Tertullian said about all women bearing the shame of Eve. All women can be known as the Devil’s gateway. But Tertullian is not representative of all that is said at this time period. But if that’s all you know then you think, “Oh, the Church must have been terrible for women.” And if you think that the Church is terrible for women, well then how do you end up with Julian of Norwich and her beautiful theology? So, I really wanted to explore what was going on then. And I collaborated with Dr. Amy Brown Hughes who is a theologian that works more with post Constantine time period and I tend to handle the pre Constantine period, more the age of the martyrs. So, we were a great pair to kind of look at women in these earliest centuries. And what we tried to do is just give a balanced picture of this time period, showing how women had agency to influence and also being realistic that there was also certainly some patriarchy or sexism that the women had to deal with. >>Kristen Padilla: As Doug has said at the beginning of the show, it is International Women’s Month. And so we want to talk with you specifically about women in scripture for one. So, I’m curious to know if you have a favorite woman or favorite women of the Bible or of the New Testament? And/or if you can tell us some women who aren’t really well known maybe in scripture or misunderstood in scripture. I just wonder if you can talk a little bit about specific women in scripture? >>Lynn Cohick: Sure. Well, I mentioned the Canaanite woman. That’s Matthew 15. We don’t know her name. Mark talks about her as the Syrophoenician woman. Mark’s language is more accurate geographically. Matthew calling her the Canaanite woman is kind of labeling her, highlighting for the reader that this was an archenemy of the ancient Israelites. So, there’s a religious dynamic going on here. With Mark, you’d have to know that she comes from the Gentile land. We know she’s a Gentile. But I find her tenacity in approaching Jesus, her theological astuteness that here she is a Pagan and yet she claims he’s Son of David, he’s Lord. She seems to be like a religious seeker who, though Pagan, is recognizing the limitations of her upbringing. And also in that context she would have had the upper hand, her people would have had the upper hand over Jews. She could have looked down her nose at Jews, including Jesus, and think, “I’m not gonna approach them.” But her desire for her daughter to be healed and her belief somehow in this Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, I’d love to sit down with her and say, “How did you arrive at that point?” I know people talk about her desperation. And I get that. But I feel like there’s also theology going with her that this isn’t just ... I mean, Jesus says that he senses he knows her faith. And so it’s not a last change, let me try this and see. She demonstrates great faith. And so, yeah, I’d love to get her back story. I think I’d love to talk more also with Deborah, the struggles that she faced including taking Israel to war. Having to just lead the people in that way. What did she face? She obviously, like any leader, would have had self doubts. So, how did she deal with that? Yeah, so I would say those would be a couple of women that maybe aren’t talked about a lot, ‘cause at least with the Canaanite woman she’s unnamed, so it’s hard to make her a character that way. Yeah. I have to say, okay, I wouldn’t mind asking a few questions to the “Jezebel” that’s mentioned in Revelation. And say ... I mean, I don’t think I’ll ever get a chance to meet her, but I’d love to know what went wrong. How is it that someone could lead a church in the wrong direction? So, if you got a do-over what would you have changed? Sometimes failed characters can be interesting to discover, like I say, what went wrong. (laughs) So, I’m not admiring her, but I would find it interesting. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. Cohick, you’re mostly a Bible scholar of course but you’re also something of a church historian. And I am a church historian and everybody who is listening to this podcast now can identify women in church history, particularly recent church history, who have been influential in their lives. But what about some women in church history that might not be well known by our listeners? Do you have any favorites? Then really importantly, why does this matter? Why does it matter today that we’re having this conversation about women in the Bible, women in church history? What’s a practical takeaway for listeners with respect to this kind of focus, this emphasis on paying attention to the women God has used over the course of the history of redemption? >>Lynn Cohick: Well, and let me answer that second part first, maybe. There’s a phrase that I’ve heard recently, “You can be what you can see.” And I think by highlighting the historical contributions of women, it helps women today to feel like, “I have a history. I have a place. I helped write the experiences of the Church. I contributed to its identity. I have a place here because I have a history here.” I think humans understand who we are, even just personally we understand who we are because of where we’ve been or our childhood memories inform how we understand ourselves today and who we are today. And so if we take that kind of personal micro chasm and we expand that to think about the Church as an organism – how we understand ourselves today is tied to how we understand where we’ve been. And if we ignore the role, or we just don’t pay attention to ... ignore might sound like we’re really purposefully doing that, but if we just don’t even think about the fact that women were dying for the faith in the second century and their martyr’s death was seen as a model for the excellent Christian, whether that Christian was man or woman. That somehow says to me, “Lynn, if back in 203 there were women whose testimony led to their death, ‘I am a Christian’ cost them their life.” Well, you know, that’s part your heritage. And so you can persevere too. (laughs) So, I would say that’s why I think it’s very important for me as a woman. Secondly, it’s important I think for men to also recognize that we got here, the Church was built not simply on bishops making pronouncements at councils, or generating creeds, but on the liturgy that was formed in part around martyr’s deaths. The education that was in part sponsored by wealthy women who established monasteries for men and for women to continue with translation and the creation of commentaries and that sort of thing. It’s building churches, these women that could build churches or other sites of worship that allowed for the congregations to come together, allowed for liturgy to be created and sustained. Women were just doing a lot together with men in each generation for the Church to grow and to thrive. So, I think it’s important for men to not imagine that this idea of women involvement in the Church is somehow a modern 20th century question, but rather it was just natural in the early centuries for women and men together they helped build the church. I mentioned martyrs and I would say there are some key female martyrs that really shaped the imagination and the identity of the Church after the age of the martyrs. One important is Thecla. She does amazing things, amazing miracles happen to her. And it’s hard to ... I don’t want to say that this is kind of a historical document like what we have in the Book of Acts in our Bible. Right? This is a separate, this book isn’t in the Bible. But her character was honored for centuries after, because she testified to a life of complete abandonment in her love of God. And she also decided to pursue an ascetic lifestyle. She remained a virgin. She didn’t marry. And that life of devotion, giving up her life of wealth to have a life totally devoted to God, as I say, it just ... it was a model that so many of the Christians grabbed hold of, including a woman named Macrina the Younger who would have lived in the 300s. And she talks about how she was given a special name by her mother and her special name was Thecla. So, this Thecla that was generations earlier ... her story continued to inspire women and men. So, I think knowing about a Thecla and her devotion, I taught on this last summer, and one of the students talked with their daughter who I think was in junior high or maybe the early high school age. And for Halloween this past year her daughter dressed up as Thecla and went around and had a little card describing briefly a story of Thecla. I thought how awesome is that? Yeah. But that’s one of the saints, if I could use that in kind of a generic sense. One of the people who led a faithful life that we can model our lives on. >>Kristen Padilla: I have a two part question for you. You mentioned the new programs that you are developing at Northern Seminary. And I know that you already are admitting and training women for ministry as we do here at Beeson. And so my two part question is this: Why is theological education important for women in ministry? Why does the Church need or profit from women with theological education? And then secondly what was your path into theological education and into ministry? What did that look like for you? As I talk to women, I hear that finding that path is sometimes difficult. And so I wonder if you can also share a little bit of your own story? >>Lynn Cohick: I grew up in a nominal Methodist home. So, we went to church sporadically. My parents were very good nominal Christians, right? Very moral, but when I was in high school I heard the message of the gospel as did my mom from a Methodist minister who in that time ... born again would be the language that would be used. And so I really accepted the gospel as my own faith commitment then as did my mom, and a few years later my father. But the church that I was a part of had trouble imagining women teaching adult men. And I never felt called to be a pastor. I really wanted to get into education. And I loved the Bible and the world of the Bible and that’s what I wanted to study. So, I always felt like I wanted to go into studying scripture from that academic sense and went on for my PhD right out of undergrad. I didn’t go to seminary because I wanted to study the Bible and my church would not write a letter of recommendation for me to study that. So, I would say that theme of a woman shouldn’t study the Bible at that high level because it’s not appropriate and a woman shouldn’t be in peer to peer conversation with men about biblical or theological things is probably a constant noise in the background in my life. It would emerge in different ways. Just a pretty regular, “Why are you here? What are you doing?” And I would say that theme is a pretty familiar theme in the women that I talk with who want to study the Word of God more and more deeply, but they have this sense from their church or from family members, sometimes family members who are also pastors in churches, that it’s just not suitable. It’s just not the thing that a female should do. And so that’s been the thing that I’ve needed to push through and I feel what Beeson does and what Northern does is try to create a space where women can, without questioning their desires, can give a space for women to explore the scripture, to grow in their knowledge of the Word, and to feel that that’s okay, there’s an affirmation that as a woman you can do this. You could also ask, “Why is it important for me to know the story of my African brothers and sisters or my Korean brothers and sisters?” You know? I see in their church communities an aspect of worship, an understanding of prayer, an appreciation for the healing power of God that in my White middle class upbringing just didn’t raise to that level in my church experience. So, I think if we know that and we know that we’re enriched, even we’re enriched when we hear other’s stories and how God has blessed them, how God has kept them in the midst of trial, it seems to me pretty natural then that we would want to hear each other’s stories, men would want to know from women and women would want to know from men. Of course women are always learning from men because most pastors are men. But I mourn the fact that there seems to be some kind of threat or feeling of threat for a man to learn from a woman that somehow that is threatening to him being a man. And I feel badly for that, ‘cause I don’t think that’s what scripture is indicating. I think there is much more of a collaborative partnership that I see in the pages of scripture and a kind of fearless enjoying of where the Church can go as men and women together, work together in building the Church. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s a good word. Lynn, we like to end these podcast interviews with our guests on a note of spiritual edification for our listeners. We like to ask our guests what the Lord has been teaching you these days that you might be willing to share with us as an encouragement to those who are listening to us now. What’s God teaching you these days? >>Lynn Cohick: I would say that God has been showing me how ... and this is a lesson I can learn over and over again, but how all sufficient he is. The all sufficiency includes answering prayers of my friends who are maybe in dire financial straits or are facing health issues, and it’s like the Lord will answer this prayer in a way that, man, it just never even occurred to me. And it’s so much bigger and more glorious than I had imagined. So, I’m kind of a fixer. I love to ... there’s a problem, let me go ahead and fix it. And I can bring that attitude to God. “Hey, God, here’s a problem. Let’s fix it this way.” (laughs) And I’m just learning, again, his all sufficiency, learning to rest in that, to be in that and to rejoice in that. So, coupled with that self sufficiency, then, or God being all sufficient as opposed to me relying on my own self sufficiency is then this note of gratitude and thankfulness. Because it’s just freeing to realize that God has it all. He is all sufficient. And so that note of gratitude has also been highlighted for me in the recent weeks. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s a great word for all of us fixers who are active in ministry. Listeners, you have been hearing Lynn Cohick. She is Provost and Dean of Academic Affairs at Northern Seminary, which is near Chicago. She is a good friend of Kristen’s and of mine as well. We are grateful to her for her time this afternoon. We’re grateful to you for tuning in. We love you. We’re praying for you. And we say “goodbye” for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.