Beeson Podcast, Episode #634 Dr. Timothy George and Dr. Stefana Dan Laing Dec. 27, 2022 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast! Merry Christmas! I am your host, Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. And this is our final episode of 2022. So, we’ve decided to make it truly special. We are recording today in the most beautiful space on all of Samford’s campus, the Andrew Gerow Hodges Chapel. We’re also recording today in both audio and video. If you are listening to us on a podcast app, feel free to move on over to our YouTube Channel at Beeson Divinity and gaze with us at the spiritually rich surroundings. We have professors Timothy George and Stephan Laing with us today. They will tell us about the history, the art, and the theological meanings of Hodges Chapel. We’re praying that this episode will bless and encourage you. So, Kristen, without any further ado would you please tell us just a little bit about these guests and begin our conversation? >>Kristen Padilla: Yes, thank you, Doug. First, let me give my Christmas greetings to all of you and tell you how grateful we are that you listen to our show every week. Today on the show we have two of my favorite people: Dr. Timothy George and Dr. Stefana Dan Laing. Dr. Timothy George is founding dean of Beeson Divinity School and now serves as Distinguished Professor of Divinity here at Beeson. Dr. Stefana Dan Laing is Associate Professor of Divinity at Beeson, where she teaches courses in Spiritual Formation and Church History. She also serves as our Theological Librarian. So, welcome Dr’s George and Laing to the Beeson Podcast and here to Hodges Chapel. As Doug mentioned, we want to talk to you today about Hodges Chapel. If you listener have ever been to Hodges Chapel, you are perhaps struck by its beauty. Almost immediately one’s gaze is drawn upward to the dome where Jesus is depicted surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. This space never ceases to take my breath away. So, I wonder if we can begin with you, Dr. George, today. Can you tell us about how Hodges Chapel came to be? Who came up with the design, and the ideas that we see here today? What was the process like working with the architect and the painter? >>Timothy George: Yes, I’ll be glad to say a word about those things. First of all, it is great to be here in Hodges Chapel. We wanted this chapel to be a place that gave honor and glory to God – and I pray that it does in everything that we did in it. Who’s idea was it? Well, so much that we do and are here at Beeson goes back to Ralph Waldo Beeson, who was our founding benefactor. He was not an architect, but he kind of knew what he didn’t like. And when he said, “You need to have your own chapel down there on the campus of Samford University,” because there is another chapel, a beautiful chapel, Reid Chapel, that was there long before our school was founded, but Mr. Beeson particularly designated funds for this particular chapel. And he wanted it to be one that would really bring glory and honor to God in every way, be beautifully aesthetically pleasing, but also have a spiritual and theological meaning. So, those were the marching orders we got almost from the beginning. It took a few years to kind of get the wheels rolling. You mentioned a couple of other people. I’d have to say a word about Dr. Corts (he was our president then). He had a great deal to do with the whole development of the divinity school, including the chapel. In fact, I remember six o’clock AM meetings in his office where we would go over this chapel idea. And we started out with just sort of a plain typical Southern Baptist kind of place, and he said, “Don’t we have to think beyond that?” And over time, back and forth, we came up with different ideas. And I remember the idea of doing something with a dome that has a different kind of aura about it, that brings in a different tradition of Christianity. And then the whole concept of doing painting and art in the chapel. Some of us belong to traditions where that’s not usually done. In fact, it’s kind of frowned on. We thought we wanted to make a statement. A good statement. That God can use beautiful things for his glory and the message of the cross and of Christ can go forward in all kinds of ways. You mentioned our architect, Neil Davis. His father was the architect for Reid Chapel here on our campus. So, this had been a family kind of tradition. He’s a brilliant architect. He did some traveling. I know he went to Venice and looked at some models there and came back and those early morning meetings we would get out the plans and, “What if we did this?” and “What if we did that?” So, that’s kind of how it all began way back there in the start of the divinity school. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. George, why is the chapel called The Andrew Gerow Hodges Chapel? Who was Mr. Hodges? >>Timothy George: Dr. Corts and I were right here in the chapel and were thinking about what are we going to name this chapel? And it came to both of us almost at the same time. The right name for this chapel is Andrew Gerow Hodges. Who was he? Well, he was a long-serving trustee of Samford University. A great friend of Ralph Waldo Beeson. In fact, in some ways I think Gerow Hodges had a great deal to do with Mr. Beeson feeling so deeply in his heart about the need for a divinity school on our campus. And he had been a generous friend and donor to our school over the years. And so it seemed to us it was right to honor him and his legacy. And then we had a dedicatory naming when he and his family were here. It was just a great occasion. >>Kristen Padilla: Dr. George, before I move over to Dr. Laing I wonder if you could tell us a bit about how you came to choose the artist of this chapel? And then Dr. Laing, I wonder if you can follow that by sharing a little bit more about the art that we see here. What type of art did he use and what Romanian influences are evident in the art here? But Dr George, can we start with you? How did you meet our artist? >>Timothy George: We announced this project and we gave a commission for it and we got in touch with [inaudible 00:06:29] in that way. He had been in Canada. He’s from Romania. A very interesting life story. He had done some work in Canada and got in touch with us here at Samford University and found out about the project and it just seemed to be a natural fit, a brilliant genius kind of guy, and came with lots of ideas. Not all of which we accepted, but a lot of which we accepted. >>Kristen Padilla: Dr. Laing, can you tell us more about the art that we see here in this chapel? And any Romanian influences? >>Stefana Laing: Let me say, first, that I share your reaction to the dome. Just the way that it draws the viewer up to the resurrected and glorified Jesus. This was also my reaction when I first saw it about 20 years ago. And it felt in some sense familiar and in another way a little bit jarring. So, the familiarity comes because I visited a lot of frescoed churches, but in particular Romania has some very famous monastery churches. They’re completed covered in frescoes, both inside and outside. They’re painted on a blue background, sky blue background, it almost looks like the figures are floating in time and space, the blue indicates divinity. So, this is a [UNESCO 00:07:49] world heritage site and they date back to the 15th century. So, each one of these churches has at least one dome and each dome is covered in frescoes on the inside and each one has some pretty standard Byzantine imagery. So, looking in our dome for the first time I felt like it was sort of familiar but then also jarring because churches with painted domes usually have a particular artistic program that you can expect to see. So, Jesus reigning from heaven, to be expected. Angels, apostles, prophets, they’re all expected. Figures from 20 centuries of church history are not expected. (laughter) So, it jarred me a little bit. Certainly not a collection of figures as broad ranging and as global as what we have here. So, to be fair, sometimes local or regional figures or patron saints are depicted in eastern churches but they all kind of have the same Byzantine style look about them. They’re not all recognizable through facial features as are most of the figures that we have here. So, your question about Romanian artistic influence is an interesting one. And a little bit hard to assess, because Romania as a majority eastern orthodox country is filled with Byzantine iconography that’s created according to specific standards and formats that are pretty consistent across the Orthodox world. So, the point there is to be uniform and not really to stand out. So, Romanian, Russian, Greek iconography - it looks pretty uniform. And that’s because they’re reflecting the same theological understanding to the viewer or to the worshipper. Namely, they’re trying to convey something about the transformational work of the divine in and through human beings. So, the only figures I think I would characterize as those close to an icon type of style are the earliest two figures in the dome. So, the two women: Perpetua and Felicitas. If you have a look up there in their window, the long thing faces and noses, the large, round eyes are consistent features across icons, showing the person as tranquil with eyes wide open, kind of as windows into the soul and showing the soul to be tranquil and in harmony with God. That’s what they’re supposed to convey. They teach us. They model for us true peace and rest in God, despite the struggle that comes to each of us. The struggle with sin, or in their case the struggle with persecution that eventually led to their martyrdom. So, as they look at us with placid faces, the symbols of both their struggle and their victory are still depicted there in their panel around them. The ladder, the dragon (symbol of the devil), the golden apples, the victory, et cetera. So, in view of the familiarity and also the little bit of foreignness, if I had to characterize his artist style I would say that [PEDRO 00:11:17] operates within kind of a traditional matrix. So, that means he uses traditional recognizable symbols while also allowing himself the freedom to use and adapt traditional elements producing what I would say is kind of a more modern medium, or a western kind of feel. So, he’s not doing iconography per se because that’s a theological and spiritual vocation that usually is undertaken by artists that are designated for that. But he’s certainly doing iconographic portraiture in the dome. And a lot of symbolic work in the panels. If I could give an example of this use of different elements. If we look at the nativity scene. Mary’s and Jesus’ poses are traditional. Mary is reclining. Jesus is there next to her. The colors are traditional. They indicate the blue of divinity, the white of purity, the purple of royalty, as Mary is sitting on a purple cushion, and Jesus has a purple swaddling cloth there. (laughs) Red usually symbolizes human nature, life, vitality, blood. You see the red drape there. That I think is kind of an indication, the incarnation is taking place here. It’s the human nature. The cave setting is traditional. Even the craggy cliffs that are rising up into the background. The presence of the ox and the donkey are traditional. All the way back in nativity scenes back to the fourth century, probably a little bit before. But Joseph’s posture is not traditional. Joseph is not usually where we see him here in the panel. Joseph is conventionally portrayed off to the side. Kind of in a lower corner. Sometimes actually with his back turned. Sometimes he’s just sitting there looking like he’s dozing off and kind of uninvolved. But [PEDRO 00:13:19] has offered to us here a portrait of a family. The holy family through which God works his plan for the ages. And in this family Joseph is essentially an adoptive father for Jesus. Mary and Joseph’s situation in coming together wasn’t ideal for either of them. In their society it wasn’t very convenient. But the fact that they’re shown together here conveys to me that both the young virgin Mary of Nazareth and also Joseph the righteous carpenter accepted God’s plan for them, and God’s way. They’re obedient to it and they’re shown here together as full participants together living into God’s will. And you can see that both of the parents give honor to the Christ child with their hand a little bit extended. And you have the sleeping Jesus whose white garments reflect the light of the little fire at the bottom, and also balance out the scene with the other source of light which is the blinding light of the angel as a divine messenger coming down to absolutely terrify the shepherds. Notice the angel also is wearing purple as a royal messenger. So, these are some kind of similarities and differences that just have a really interesting and rich effect I think. >>Doug Sweeney: All right, Dr. Laing has spoken at some depth already about the dome, Dr. George. But I get questions all the time about, “Where did the concept for the dome come from?” How did we decide to make the dome look like that? And the question I get the most is, “Who decided which saints to put up there in the dome? And what was that process like?” Can you speak to that a little bit? >>Timothy George: Sure. Well, the dome really was a part of the original design of this building, but what would go in the dome, that was something we really wrestled with and we came up with a theme that’s based on a text of scripture, Hebrews 12:1-2, “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.” And so when we look up we see the figure of the risen Christ surrounded by all the many myriads of saints in glory. And we wanted him ... he’s not alone up there of course in Heaven. The saints are with him. And so we wanted to depict some of those saints. Now it was a very feisty faculty meeting. I remember, Dean Sweeney. >>Doug Sweeney: Nooooo. >>Timothy George: When we debated that question, who got to be in the dome. Now, the first seven or eight are very easy. Nobody is going to argue with Augustine or Luther or Calvin. But then it got hard. And so we had a number of different nominees from the faculty and we agreed on these for various reasons. Is it the perfect group? There’s 16, so we call them our Sweet 16. There’s 16 saints there. You could argue about some should be there, maybe others shouldn’t be there. But those were the people this particular faculty at that particular time thought we would want these people to represent the whole panoply of Christ’s people through the ages. So, what we were looking for are ancient folks, like Perpetua and Felicitas, more modern fairly recent figures like William Seymour is up there for example, the leader of the Great Azusa Street Revival in the early 20th century, the founder of Pentecostalism in a way – we wanted that represented. So, we went around the table and the faculty finally agreed on that. Nobody got everyone he wanted. Not even the dean. I got most of those I wanted, but not everybody. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, Dr. Laing, I’ve already said that you are a professor of not only spiritual formation but also church history, early church history. And you’ve already touched on this, but I wonder if you could expand on it. As you look at Hodges Chapel, how might this space aid worshippers? We worship in this space every week on a Tuesday during both fall and spring semesters. So, how can Hodges Chapel aid those who worship in this space and then secondly how is Hodges Chapel pedagogical? How can it be used to teach church history? >>Stefana Laing: Well, the artist’s aim is to communicate something visually about theology and about ecclesiology to the viewer or to the worshipper. Because this is not a museum. In the case of these lower panels right here in front of me and behind me, the viewer is surrounded by the seasons of the church. The panels encompass the worshippers with events from the life of Jesus, with the beginnings of the church, by the power of the Holy Spirit, with the evangelistic work of the church, and preaching and teaching and baptizing in the name of the Trinity, who is also represented there. And so these panels remind us of our origins, even into the Old Testament, speaking of prophesy there. They remind us of our energizing power of the Holy Spirit. And also of our continuing mission. So, that’s kind of a big picture about worship and also pedagogy. But on a smaller scale, in addition to what we said before about the nativity panel. When we take time in prayer and in meditation, maybe when it’s quiet in the chapel, not always during the worship time on Tuesdays, we might look at details and think about their theological import. And we might notice something like when we look at the nativity scene, look at the manger for example. The manger in which Jesus is shown is represented as being woven of reeds. It doesn’t look like any manger that I’ve ever seen. But I think it conveys something about the intersection of several theological currents. So, this is to your question about how can this be pedagogical. So, it looks like a woven basket with ribs that come up that resemble the skeleton of a boat. And when I see this image I think of Moses deliverance from the Nile. I think of Noah’s deliverance from the flood. And insofar as this image of woven reeds looks a little bit like a crown with some thorns. I also think of my own deliverance from eternal death. And so what it teaches me theologically, Christologically, is that Christ is the deliverer. Moses and Noah prefigured Christ as deliverers, but Christ is the ultimate deliverer. So, in one image you can convey prophecy, Christology, and salvation. And so as one worships among these images, week by week, struck by one element and then another in the context of weekly worship, year after year, I think a person is spiritually formed toward the purposes of God in salvation and steeped in God’s curriculum of salvation. >>Doug Sweeney: You know, a lot of the tour groups come and view Hodges Chapel come from churches that would be Baptist churches, or Bible churches, Free churches, churches that aren’t used to worship spaces that look quite like this. Beeson is full of Baptists and Bible church people and Free church people. And the dean who supervised the building of this chapel is a faithful Baptist. Dr. Laing, you’re a Baptist. How should low church Baptists, Free church folks process a space like this? Is it for them? Is it for all of us? Or is this just sort of a high church chapel? Maybe Dr. Laing we’ll start with you this time. >>Stefana Laing: All right. Well, I don’t think you have to have a certain kind of liturgy to think about how God works his will in the world through ordinary and fallible human beings like those depicted here and also those up there and also those who worship in the pews here week by week. So, the walls are filled with ordinary people who didn’t see themselves as special or important. But who walked obediently with God. And that goes equally for biblical figures and historical figures. I noticed that there are no haloed figures in the chapel. So, there are none there, there are none in the pews either. But as a worshipping community we are formed in our wills through honoring God with praise and hearing his word read and preached, we follow in the path that’s trodden out by those who surround us. This is what the images remind us of. I think that helps to cut against the grain of autonomous and loner Christianity and discipleship. And I think that it helps to form us to be more communally minded disciples. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s wonderful. Dr. George? >>Timothy George: Yeah, I will add to that. Sometimes people come into the chapel and they say, “Well, this looks like a Catholic church.” The people who never say that are Catholics. Because there’s no altar here. We have a pulpit where the word is central, that’s a very protestant idea. We recognize the unity of the whole body of Christ, east and west, north and south, and we want this chapel to make a statement about the unity of the Body of Christ and our place within it. So, Roman Catholics have served God in so many wonderful ways with art and architecture, but I have a question ... as much as I love Roman Catholics. My friends, why should they have all the fun? Why can’t this be a part of the protestant and evangelical tradition, too? So, I take your point that we’re kind of edging out a little bit on this and there are dangers. Let me say. There are dangers in iconography and painting in a church. We don’t want that ever to become the object of devotion and adoration. Our gaze is to Jesus Christ and his word as we hear it proclaimed. But these are aides to worship, I would say. And they encompass the whole body of Christ. And all of the denominations that center on the One Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. When the chapel was being developed we had these niches. There are six of them. All around the chapel. And they were empty. We didn’t know what was going to go there, who would go there. And we came up with the idea that martyrs ... 20th century martyrs, fairly recent in the history of the church, who had given their lives for Jesus Christ. One from every inhabited continent on earth. So, we chose those names. It was again a process of sifting through and lots of possible recommendations. But I think we made pretty good choices. And one of the interesting things ... once the chapel was dedicated we had representatives of these figures, often family members, people who had known them and worked with them in ministry to come to Beeson Chapel. We had a dedication for each one these figures that represent martyrdom. And it reminds us, again, that not only are the martyrs from ages past, but it’s happening right now in the world. And we should be concerned about those that are persecuted for the faith, including these people that we have here now with the Lord in glory that leave behind this wonderful legacy. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. George, Dr. Laing, we always like to end these podcast interviews by asking guests what the Lord’s been doing in their lives recently. It occurs to us that since this is a Christmas special episode and we’re here in Hodges Chapel, some of whose art depicts Christmas scenes, we’d ask you for a word of edification for our listeners about what the Christmas season and the Christmas story means to you? Dr. Laing, what is the Lord going to be teaching you this Christmas season? >>Stefana Laing: Well, I love the anticipation of the advent season. And as I think of Isaiah 9 and 11, which is what the first panel is based on, Isaiah 11, and the tree of Jesse, I think of the incredible juxtaposition of the trampling war boots and the blood soaked garments that are thrown away and burned because the solution to our need for peace has been given and this is unto us a child is born. That verse follows immediately after this violent imagery of war. And I kind of had this realization when I was at a conference with my husband, it was a military chaplaincy conference, and it was in December. It was pretty close to Pearl Harbor Day. So, it was during advent. I was doing some reading in Isaiah. And just the juxtaposition of the war and the violent imagery and the solution as this little child, this little baby – it means to me that God is faithful to his promises over the centuries to fulfill what he promised through the prophets. It means to me that he himself meets our need for salvation, as he met Israel’s need. God met that need in an unexpected way. Not through an army or a general, but through a child. So, as Christmas is often seen as a children’s holiday, it reminds me that our ultimate hope is still in this Christ child. >>Doug Sweeney: Amen. How about you, Dr. George? >>Timothy George: I remember a special Christmas that I celebrated in Assisi in Italy with my whole family. We didn’t often get to go together as a family. But I had to be in Rome for a theological conference. We were going to add a week. It was Christmas week. We went to Assisi and it was a wonderful week just to be there and feel the impulse of that season coming through in the songs that were being sung, the worship services we attended. And then on Christmas Eve there’s a place called [inaudible 00:27:36] which is where St. Francis used to go to pray up on Mount [SEBASIO 00:27:39]. And it’s a long way up there. We took a bus and traveled up that long mountain for the Christmas Eve nativity service. They have a tradition of a live nativity. And it was so special to see the baby brought in, representing of course the baby Jesus Christ. We forget sometimes that the bible doesn’t not command us to remember the birth of Jesus. It doesn’t give us a Christmas narrative, it gives us a Christmas narrative but not a Christmas command to remember. That happens in the history of the church. And St. Francis had a great deal to it. There was a cave called Greccio not far from where we were where he celebrated for the first time that we know the nativity, and people came, the villagers, the people with their animals, to worship Christ and glorify him on the day of nativity, the feast of the nativity. I’ll never forget that moment when the baby was brought into that little chapel and we all sang, “Glory Hallelujah, Jesus Christ is born!” And that’s what Christmas is really about for all of us. >>Doug Sweeney: It sure is. What a wonderful way to end this special Christmas episode. Viewers, you have been listening to Dr. Timothy George, the founding dean and research professor here at Beeson Divinity School. And Dr. Stefana Liang, another professor of divinity, dear colleague here at Beeson Divinity School. We’re grateful to both of them for being with us today. Thanks for this gift of time. Thank you, viewers, for tuning in. Merry Christmas to you! We love you. And say goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.