Beeson podcast, Episode #580
Dr. Walter Kim
Dec. 21, 2022

Announcer:
Welcome to the Beeson Podcast coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now, your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla.

Doug Sweeney:
Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I'm your host, Doug Sweeney. Here with my co-host Kristin Padilla. And, this is a very big day in the life of Beeson Divinity School. It is December commencement day, and we've just sent another wonderful group of Beeson alumni into the service of the church. We want to wish you and your loved ones a very Merry Christmas. We hope this season will be full of joy and gratitude for you as you remember our Lord's incarnation. And, one of our Christmas gifts to you is the very special guest on the show with us today. He has just delivered an inspiring commencement address in Hodges Chapel. We have all kinds of things we want to ask him about. So, Kristen, let's get to it. Will you please introduce Dr. Walter Kim to our listeners?

Kristen Padilla:
Yes, Doug. Thank you. And, hello everyone. Today in the studio, we have Reverend Dr. Walter Kim. Dr. Kim is the president of the National Association of Evangelicals. He served as the pastor for leadership and currently serves as teacher in residence at Trinity Presbyterian Church in Charlottesville, Virginia. He also serves on the Boards of Christianity Today in World Relief and on the Advisory Council of Gordon college.

Kristen Padilla:
Dr. Kim received his PhD from Harvard University in Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations. His MDiv Degree from Regent College in Vancouver and his BA Degree from Northwestern University in Philosophy and History. Friends, he has taught classes at Boston College and at Harvard University and contributed to a number of works, including the Encyclopedia of Hebrew Language and Linguistics, the Archeological Study Bible and the Soul of Medicine. Dr. Kim is a licensed minister in the Conservative Congregational Christian Conference, and he is married to Tony. And, they have two teenagers. So, welcome Dr. Kim to the Beeson Podcast.

Walter Kim:
Thank you. What a delight to be a part of this conversation today. And, I have had a great time at the commencement. It was a joy to see the enthusiasm of the faculty and blessing the students and the students and the life of ministry that is before them.

Kristen Padilla:
Well, it's a blessing to have you with us today, Dr. Kim. Not only for [inaudible 00:02:44], but for our students who just graduated, and our faculty and staff. Well, I've read a pretty long bio and just want to say I'm impressed by all that you've accomplished. But, we would like to know some personal details about your life. I understand that you are the child of immigrant parents. So, can you tell us just a little bit about your story and how you came to know the Lord?

Walter Kim:
Yeah. So, my father was part of a expat Korean community in China. And, as the communists were taking over the country, he and his family fled. So, they were refugees fleeing the communist takeover. And, their story was literally one of hiding in fields, crossing a river in a barrel, and getting to South Korea. And, when he got to South Korea eventually, that's where he met my mom. And, in the years after the Korean wars, they were putting their life together, they decided to try to move to America, which they did in the mid sixties. Of course, that's a incredibly complicated time in the mid sixties to move to America as... They were trying to figure out what does it mean to be American. America was trying to figure out what it means to be American.

Walter Kim:
And, entering into a country where there had been political assassinations and civil rights movement, Vietnam war. What does it mean to navigate this country as an immigrant? Well, people of faith were instrumental in that process. People of faith had helped my parents move to America. In fact, it was a Lutheran pastor, actually, that helped them navigate the immigration system. I was born in New York city and one of my earliest memories was living in the basement of an Irish Catholic family who taught me about baseball and how to ride my big wheel and get to the playground.

Walter Kim:
And, as I grew up, our family eventually moved to a small coal mining town in Western Pennsylvania. And, that's actually where I first heard about the Gospel. Our family had grown up going to church, but that was more of a cultural experience. It was this country music listening, always lived in Appalachia, youth pastor, who had reached out to this Korean kid from New York city. Befriended me and did what youth pastors are really good at doing.

Walter Kim:
Took me to Star Wars and then transitioned after the movie by asking me, "You know, when Obi-Wan Kenobi gave his life for Luke Skywalker to be able to escape, does that remind you of anyone?" And, of course, I said, "Well, I think Jesus, because we've been talking about Jesus." And, we pulled on the side of the road and I prayed the sinner's prayer. And, that was my introduction into a form of faith that opened up the world to me, the world of God.

Doug Sweeney:
I want to ask you about your pastoral ministry. We've told the listeners today, you're the president of the NAE, the National Association of Evangelicals. But, for most of your life you served as a pastor. How'd that happen? How'd you feel like the Lord wanted you to be a pastor? I would guess that a PhD student at Harvard also thought about teaching and struggled with a decision about pastoral ministry versus other things. I don't want to set this up in too much detail, but just tell us a little bit, if you will, about how you got called into pastoral ministry and what your life as a pastor has been like.

Walter Kim:
Yeah. Part of my conversion story includes this moment after Star Wars. But, it includes is also an event that happened not too long after that, where I was at a Christian Conference. And, I had a sense that though I had trusted Christ for salvation, that there was still a lot that I didn't know and experience about God. And, it was at that conference where I had, I can only describe it as a powerful encounter with God's spirit, filling my life and transforming me, giving me a sense of his grandeur. During that time, there was this seed of thought that I would be in ministry. But, much of that experience shaped the way I thought of ministry as this conpietistic conversion story of transformation. All true, all wonderful. But, my mind was left out of the equation, the life of the mind.

Walter Kim:
And so, it took me many, many years, nearly a decade, of walking with God before I had a sense that my mind was also a part of Christian discipleship. And, once I got to that point, I thought about, "Oh, maybe I should go get this PhD and be a researcher at a university, be a witness for Christ at a secular university." That's when I started attending Park Street Church, which is in downtown Boston. A historic evangelical church, 200 year history, very faithful to the Gospel, and yet very engaged in the life of the city. So, downtown we are as apt to have a homeless person as a part of our congregation as we were a leading scientist from one of the universities in Boston. That was the church that I first caught a true and genuine glimpse of the possibility of bringing together the different aspects of my life.

Walter Kim:
My interests in a Gospel that changes people's lives, that is strongly missionary in focus. But, one that was also penetrating into the life of the university. And, when an opportunity came for both my wife and I to come on staff there, we considered a tremendous call from the Lord to finally make sense of the different streams of our lives. And so, that was the call of the pastoral ministry. How that leads to the NAE was Park Street Church was instrumental in the founding of the National Association of Evangelicals.

Walter Kim:
Harold John Ockenga, a former senior pastor, was the first president of the NAE, as well as a number of other institutions. World Relief came out of that time period from Park Street, Gordon Conwell, fuller seminary. It was a really fertile time of evangelical initiative. And so, I would hear these stories and that eventually led to the opportunity to become a board member at the NAE and then this opportunity to serve as president.

Kristen Padilla:
Well, we want to talk about your role as president. But, first, I wonder if you can tell our listeners more about what is the NAE. It's mission, it's purpose. You've referenced its history, but perhaps a little bit more about its history.

Walter Kim:
Yeah. So, the NAE started in 1942 at a time of tremendous fragmentation in the church. This growing divide between fundamentalist streams of evangelicalism, or the church, that really was becoming increasingly concerned about their culture. But, the response, if I can use more general descriptions, was one of opposition and isolation.

Walter Kim:
And, yet, there were also other streams of this growing theological liberalism, where there was a sense there had to be a third way to be robust and Orthodox in theology, but engaged in the big issues of culture. Not in an oppositional and angry way. But, in a way that is collaborative and seeks for the blessing of the nation. And, that's a deep part of the DNA. And so, the NAE has long served as this place of collaboration. Right now, 40 different denominations, scores of Christian nonprofits and institutions are NAE members, represent tens of thousands of churches.

Walter Kim:
And, again, schools, institutions, nonprofit organizations, that really seek to keep Christ central. And so, we provide resources, opportunities to collaborate, best practices. But, also a spirit that reaffirms keeping the Gospel the central thing, while at the same time, bringing people together in collaborative efforts that demonstrate that Christ and his body really can fulfill the prayer of John 17, that the world would see the oneness in Christ. And, that oneness itself would be a witness.

Doug Sweeney:
What's it like being the president of the NAE? What's the job? What do you do? And, I guess maybe one interesting thing to ask you about is, you became president in 2020 in the midst of the COVID epidemic and you've led the NAE through a lot of social and cultural turmoil. So, if I could ask a two pronged question, what's it like being the president and what's it like being the president right now?

Walter Kim:
My predecessor describes, Leith Anderson, being the president of NAE as not hurting cats, but hurting squirrels. Because, it's a robust organization of denominations that are deeply engaged with all sorts of issues. And, the sense of collaboration is keenly felt. But, really, really complicated. Because, they're mission specific institutions that we want to respect their mission, and yet firmly believe that any individual mission can be greatly augmented by the corporate witness of the Body of Christ followers working together. And so, part of what it means to be president that both is the joy, as well as the challenge, is I get a front row seat at the work of God in various denominations and institutions.

Walter Kim:
Speaking at denominational conferences, and yet hearing the reports at those conferences of what God is doing in every corner of our nation. So much of the dialogue right now about evangelicalism is about its fragmentation, about the political polarization that exists in our country. All those things are true. But, what is the untold story that I get to see is the work of God that is still persisting in and through the church. In it's myriads of forms, faithful Christ followers. And, that's really exciting.

Walter Kim:
So, my job is to see it, to promote it, to augment it through collaborative efforts, and to engage in our public witness as Christ followers, as evangelicals, as good news people.

Kristen Padilla:
You mentioned in your sermon today, that the word evangelical has become a hot topic over the last couple of years. And, I wonder if you can talk to us about what does it mean to be an evangelical? And, why is that still a good descriptive word to use of this segment of Christians that you work with and overseeing your work at NAE, today?

Walter Kim:
I mean, clearly, there's sociological evidence that the term evangelical is now increasingly being used in a variety of ways. Pew put out a study not too long ago that talked about the term evangelical even being used by people who have very little to no faith. And, it was a denominator of their political persuasion as much as it would be any gentle nod toward religious belief. That's true. But, having said that, part of evangelicalism is a recognition of our high view of scripture. The fact that Christ really can transform lives and calls us to that conversion to him. A call to action in its myriad of forms. And, I hesitate to say this in the presence of a church historian, but the way that evangelicalism has been used in the great revivals of our country, that represented the good news, the Gospel, as something both in word, and in deed. Some of the most compelling forces of social transformation, deeply rooted in a relationship with Christ.

Walter Kim:
Those things have always been at the central part of evangelicalism. And, part of my job is to keep that central part the focus. But, I would also have to say there is not simply central features to evangelicalism. There are central postures to evangelicalism. And, the question of how does evangelicals, or how do these sets of people relate to culture, integrate complex issues of faith and science. That's not just a core identity issue. That's more of a posture issue of how one relates to culture. So, I would say that evangelicals, we have experienced ebbs and flows within our country of vitality, spiritual vitality, of confidence and bold engagement with culture that's transformative in nature, and then retreats from it out of fear or anxiety.

Walter Kim:
And, we're in an inflection point right now. There's no doubt about it. We're at a deep inflection point. Demographic changes in our country, the generational changes, the reckoning with our history. The realization that we're increasingly in a post-Christian society. And, we are needing to move from a majoritarian posture where we can assume that people have faith that is ours, to a missional posture, is a hard one to make. Easy to say, "Oh, we're no longer majoritarian. We're missional." It's very difficult to live.

Walter Kim:
But, it's not only our history that encourages me to hold onto this term. It's the global church. It's the fact that in attending the World Evangelical Alliance in 2019, 90 different countries in which the Gospel is flourishing. And, the common plea at the World Evangelical Alliance was do not give up the term. There was actually a panel at the WEA of representatives from South America, from Asia, from Africa and Europe. No American was on the panel. And, the panel discussion was what's going on with American evangelicalism.

Walter Kim:
The Canadians were quick to say, "We're not Americans, so don't include us in that." But, the common consensus view was the term evangelical is robust and important in our context. And, we hope that it remains so with the Americans, because we need to be in this together. And, I was walking away thinking it's such an American thing to think. If the term is inconvenient for us, let's just get rid of it. Why would I wish to disassociate myself with the global movement of God that is doing such a compelling and beautiful work? I want to be a part of that movement. I want to own that. So, no, I'm not ready to give up the term evangelical. Because, to me it represents this movement of vitality in American history, but it represents an important moment of our global relationship right now with the church worldwide.

Doug Sweeney:
I'm with you. Thanks for saying that. And, I wanted to pose a question for you that would get you talking a little bit for our listeners about how God is at work around the world in his church today, just to expand our horizons and give us a more worldwide understanding of the evangelical movement. Occurs to me, we probably have a bunch of listeners to this podcast who don't know much about the World Evangelical Alliance. I've known about it for many years. My mother used to work for what used to be called WEF, the World of Evangelical Fellowship. So, I've paid attention and there's really exciting things they've been doing for a long time. Could you just tell our listeners a little bit more about it? And, is there a formal relationship between the National Association of Evangelicals in this country and the World Evangelical Alliance?

Walter Kim:
Yes, there is a formal relationship. So, the World Evangelical Alliance is composed of representatives from all the national associations, called different things in different countries. Here it's the NAE. But, in other countries, it may be called by a different name. But, all these institutions, these organizations, evangelical alliances, have decided once again, that we are better together. That there is some movement of God throughout the world of good news people who are doing things, both in the proclamation and in the living out of the faith. The Gospel in word and deed.

Walter Kim:
And, we are better together. So, it includes all sorts of things. Worldwide evangelistic efforts in which missions organizations, again, see themselves, not as competitors, but as collaborators. Bible translation work that the World Evangelical Alliance is able to, by the nature of being a third party association, foster collaborative efforts. There's also issues of the persecuted church because of the World Evangelical Alliance.

Walter Kim:
We are, at the NAE, in relationship with national networks that are existing as underground churches, experiencing tremendous persecution. And, the formal relationship leads to a deep representation of the spiritual ties. So, advocacy in areas of religious freedom for the persecuted church is very much a part of the work of the World Evangelical Alliance. But, there are the things that you can never capture by organizational charts, never capture just by a formal white paper on an issue. It is the humble relationship that evangelical leaders can foster with one another in the ownership and the solidarity of our life together as the people of God that I think is tremendously powerful. We have the chance to learn from African believers who are seeing a revival of nearly unprecedented levels and take great encouragement from that. God's spirit is absolutely at work, and we have something to be praying for and learning from.

Walter Kim:
The fortitude of the underground church in many parts of East Asia is a profound challenge for the ease with which so many of us in America get to live out our faith. And so, these benefits of recognizing our relationship to the global church is not so much that we as American evangelicals have things to offer the rest of the world. Though, we still do. Theological resources at Beeson. Much of the world would love to have this. But, we have so much to learn from the rest of the world. And, we are probably at a moment where we need to be a lot more humble in what we have to learn.

Kristen Padilla:
Well, thank you for sharing about your work with the NAE and even what's going on among world evangelicals. Before I ask you my next question, for our listeners who want to learn more or want to get involved, would you recommend they visit your website, or do you have any other recommendations?

Walter Kim:
Absolutely. Visit our website, nae.org. We have all sorts of resources, access to webinars. In particular, I would recommend a document that we have called For the Health of the Nation, an Evangelical Call for Civic Engagement. I think more than ever, we need a nuanced approach that applies the Gospel in a gracious, biblically thoughtful, and holistic way. And, that's a resource you can download for free at our website.

Kristen Padilla:
Well, thank you. And, we commend that to you, our listener. We have mentioned that you are here for our commencement and that you gave this wonderful sermon on God's interruptions. And, by the time that this episode airs, your sermon will be on our YouTube channel. So, listeners, we encourage you after this podcast episode to go over to our YouTube channel and watch and listen to your sermon. But, I wonder if you can just give our listeners a teaser of what you said and what they can expect to hear.

Walter Kim:
We have our plans in life. We have the ambitions, the goals. And, God has an uncanny way of interrupting it. But, those interruptions become opportunities for us to recognize and respond to the ways that Jesus can quench our deepest thirsts.

Doug Sweeney:
Dr. Kim, Kristin and I always like to conclude these podcast interviews by asking guests what they have learned from God recently. These days, that question can sound a little loaded. We've all been going through so much tumult, recently. But, if you had to identify just one or two things by way of edifying our listeners before we sign off that the Lord's been doing in your life recently, or teaching you recently, maybe even through your leadership at the NAE, what would it be?

Walter Kim:
I have something very quick to say to that. The complicated nature of the things that I am reflecting about, what's the biblical response to immigration? What's the biblical response to racial issues of our day? Can immerse me in all sorts of complexities that are befuddling. How do you even understand it and apply it? Recently, I was deeply struck by my need to just remember Jesus loves me. Even if I can't figure this all out, at the end of the day, he still loves me. Very simple lesson. And, I'm struck by the fact that you never graduate from that lesson.

Doug Sweeney:
Amen. You have been listening to Dr. Walter Kim. He is the president of the National Association of Evangelicals. We are deeply grateful to him for being with us today and for speaking into the life of our community, speaking into the ongoing ministries of the next group of Beeson alumni. Thank you, Dr. Kim, for the whole day of ministry among us and for being with us on the podcast.

Walter Kim:
Thanks for the invitation. It has been a joy.

Doug Sweeney:
Well, we love you, our listeners. Merry Christmas. Please pray for us. We are praying for you. Then we say goodbye for now.

Kristen Padilla:
You've been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pascarello. Our co-hosts our Doug Sweeney and myself, Kristin Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson Podcast at beesondivinity.com slash podcast, or on iTunes.