Beeson Podcast, Episode #568
Dr. Gignilliat
Sept. 28, 2021

>>Announcer: 


Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. 


>>Doug Sweeney:


Welcome to the Beeson Podcast, I’m your host, Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. We continue our series today on the theme of our recently released Beeson Magazine, “Persevering in Ministry Through Challenging Times.” We hope the show will whet your appetite for the magazine itself, and if it does you can find it at www.BeesonDivinity.com/beesonmagazine. 

Before we introduce today’s guest, let me say how grateful we are to each and every one of you for listening every week and supporting the Beeson community through prayer, recommendations, financial contributions, and by joining us on campus for chapel and special events. The Lord’s work will continue here with the help and support of people just like you. 

Also, let me remind you that we have lots of events happening every week at Beeson. If you want to learn about them go to www.BeesonDivinity.com/events. You can watch recordings of events after the fact on our YouTube page. Go to www.BeesonDivinity.com/videos.

All right, Kristen, without any further ado, would you please introduce our esteemed guest?


>>Kristen Padilla:


Yes, thank you, Doug. Hello, everyone. We have Dr. Mark Gignilliat on the show today. He is professor of Divinity here at Beeson Divinity School where he teaches Old Testament and Hebrew. He is also Canon Theologian at the Cathedral Church of the Advent in downtown Birmingham. Mark is married to Naomi and they have four children. Mark has been a guest on the show a number of times. So, I hope you will go back to the Beeson Podcast archive and search his name and listen to those past episodes. But Dr. Gignilliat, we are glad that you are here with us again today.


>>Dr. Gignilliat:

Thanks, very glad to be here.


>>Kristen Padilla:


Well, as Doug has already mentioned, we want to talk to you about the article you gave for the Beeson Magazine. Your article is called, “A Prophetically Shaped Ministry.” In it you examine the ministry of several Old Testament prophets. So, what are you seeking to communicate through your article and who are the prophets that you examine?


>>Dr. Gignilliat:


Well, first of all, thank you for inviting me to contribute to the magazine. That was a blessing to kind of think through some of the dynamics at play. I threw some spaghetti against the wall with the prophets just sort of picking and choosing various figures and thinking through what kind of encouragement would pastors today who are in the midst of so many challenges ... I mean, we feel this acutely right now ... how might the prophets encourage them? 

The truth is I’m not sure how encouraging they could be in the sense of the kind of encouragement that people might be after. I mean, if they’re looking for the encouragement of a certain kind of affirmation or a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, that’s unfortunately not where the prophets are going to be able to meet them. But I think the prophets can meet them in the solidarity of the burden and the freedom and the joy that comes with bearing God’s Word.

So, at the beginning of the article I kind of pick through some of these prophets and their tendency to be reluctant at their calling. I think that’s something that might be somewhat surprising is when you think about Moses or Jeremiah, and we’ll get back to him as we go on, or Isaiah, or Micah, I mean, these prophets were reluctant to take on the mantle that God had given them. Because I think they knew the enormity of the task was more than they were capable of and there was a burden. The burden itself was, more often than not, the Word of God that they had to bear.

So, that was kind of what was the driving thesis and just interest for this piece in terms of pastors today who are feeling the burden, frankly, of a lot of cultural and societal pressures. Of course we were in the middle of this pandemic and there’s just a lot of difficulty that is on us right now. And the prophets, I think, drive us in almost a tyrannical way back to the truth of the character of God and his being and his way with his people. That’s what I find to be the encouraging part of the prophets is they are thrusting us, almost violently, one might say, back to the Lord.


>>Doug Sweeney:


That’s a great segue, Mark, back to the question I wanted to ask you that had to do with the audience that we have in mind with respect of Beeson Magazine. Of course, we want everybody to read it, but we have alumni pastors, ministry leaders in mind, and I’m wondering if you could offer a word based on the work you did for the article what it is that the Old Testament prophets have to say to us today? Maybe particularly in the United States, those of us involved in ministry here locally and regionally, about what it takes to persevere in ministry through difficult times? 


>>Dr. Gignilliat:


Yeah, and that’s a great term: perseverance. The burden, one might even call it I guess ... I heard a preacher one time describe Jeremiah’s call as a “royal pain.” I think the burden, the ministry of God’s Word is such that demands and elicits from us a cry for perseverance. I think the term that you use, Doug, is very important here. It’s the long view. I feel less and less capable, especially given the complexity of our moment to be able to make quick assessments, cultural assessments. I just think it’s beyond my pay grade more often than not. But I do think we want quick fixes.

I think there is something with me, I know, and I’m sure with many of our listeners as well, we want things to be fixed quickly. We want easy answers. We want actionable plans that will yield predictable results, and unfortunately life and ministry don’t operate according to those principles. I just started a class today with several students. I’m very excited about this class, actually, on the Psalms in their reception and practice.

One of the late motifs of the Psalms as you kind of move through them from beginning to end is waiting on the Lord. It’s a fascinating turn of phrase. I’ve not even begun to sort of penetrate into it, but the more I think about this it’s waiting on the Lord. I think a kind of American sensibility, and I use that term loosely, but a Western sensibility, would be we’re waiting for our circumstances to get alleviated. We’re waiting for something to be past us. 

When my child gets sick and I’m angsty about that again, I want it past. When we have a pandemic that comes into our world, I want it past. I want that to be a memory that we can give thanks to the Lord for but that’s over, we want it over quickly. And the language of the prophets, the language of the Psalter is in those waiting moments we’re not waiting for the circumstance itself to be alleviated, we’re waiting on the Lord. This is an opportunity for us to be driven again back to the Lord, his truth, his comfort, his beauty, his glory, his otherness – so that we know in these moments that are really acute where our ultimate destiny is. 

I mean, that to me is what the prophets force us to, is to think through “and it will be in the latter days.” (laughs) Right? So, I think that’s something about an encouragement to preachers here who we’re not after the quick fixes because quick fixes ... I think you all can empathize with this ... They don’t help people in the cemetery and they don’t help people prepare to go to the cemetery well. It’s the long view. It’s the view of God’s being to take that which is dead and make it alive again. That’s what gives us hope in a world that seems to be desperately looking for something to alleviate our angst or our anxiety quickly.


>>Kristen Padilla:


Dr. Gignilliat, you mentioned Jeremiah a couple of times already. And you actually spent a lot of time on him in your article. Can you tell our listeners who was Jeremiah and what can we learn from him? Especially being ministers of the gospel as it relates to ministry.


>>Dr. Gignilliat:


Yeah, Jeremiah is a prophet that in some ways stands out because we’re given a little bit more of a biographical entry into his life in ways that the prophets often tend not to do. Who was Isaiah the man? Good luck finding that out. I mean, that’s actually kind of hard to do. Who was Micah the man? We get him in a prophetically shaped way, but as far as knowing the persona of the man, the scriptures aren’t often interested in giving us those kind of biographical or psychological details. But Jeremiah, we get a lot of the personality of the prophet that comes through the prophetic book.

He was a priest from the region of Anathoth. And I think I say this in the article but Anathoth is a small town. We’re talking like ... I lived for several years in the Carolinas and my wife and I when we were first married we’d drive up into the mountains to get boiled peanuts off of the side of the highway with RC Cola’s and a moon pie. So, Anathoth is that kind of town. It’s a small out of the way town. And Jeremiah is called from the backwater, one might say, to be a prophet for the nations. Think about that. For the nations in Jerusalem. 

He’s called to speak to the political and the religious elites at a cataclysmic time. One might even say it’s the most cataclysmic moment of Judah’s ancient history. So, he’s walking right into the ruins of Judah on the precipice of its exile before the Babylonian onslaught. So, he’s called to minister in the middle of that and his word is a hard one. That’s the challenge. His word is the discernment of this moment in time is that God’s judgment is upon his people. And his judgment is coming to his people via Nebuchadnezzar and his marauding hordes and the best thing that we can do as God’s people now is to yield to God’s judgment. And you can imagine that was not a popular message.

And so Jeremiah under several different political rulers; Jehoiachin, Jehoiakim, Zedekiah, Gedaliah the governor during the exile – he ministered under a lot of different rulers and was rarely received well and threatened with death and imprisoned. But I think what’s so fascinating about Jeremiah is he is a prophet of great hope in the midst of the ruin. And he’s also a prophet who has to ... And I think this is so crucial for ministers ... he’s a prophet that has to enter into solidarity with the judgment of God’s Word that he’s bringing. Think about that.

He doesn’t come into town and give his sort of word, a traveling evangelist and drop a few bombs and then head on to the next town. He brings the word, it’s a word of judgment, and Jeremiah has to live in solidarity with God’s people under the judgment of his own word. It’s kind of remarkable. And in that sense, that’s properly anticipating the person and work of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ brings God’s word of judgment as well and allows that judgment to fall upon himself. So, he as well enters into the solidarity of his own judging word.

So, that’s Jeremiah. He’s a complicated figure. Very hard to sort through the book. The book is not presented to us in a nice neat linear way. You are bumping around times from pre exile to exile and it’s a bit of a jumpy ride, but it’s a beautiful book that presents to us, I think, the hardness of God’s word, it’s ability to judge and overturn, and it’s ability to re-create and restore as well. And that’s part of the beauty of Jeremiah’s prophetic legacy.


>>Doug Sweeney:


One of the fun things, Professor Gignilliat, about this podcast for some of our listeners is that it gives them a peek inside the hallowed walls of Divinity Hall. It gives them and inside look at what seminary life is like. And if I were somebody on the outside looking in and I was listening to this interview with an Old Testament prof at Beeson who had written an article on the prophets, one thing I would want to know is, “So, what does this guy do in the classroom with these pastors-to-be? What does he teach them about the bearing of what they’re reading about in the prophetic books of the Old Testament, what they’re reading about as they examine the lives of the prophets? What’s the bearing of all of that on the way pastors should think about their own roles as pastors in the present?” Can you give them a little peek? What do you do in the classroom with students? What do you want the students of Beeson Divinity School to know and to do based on your teaching of the prophets?


>>Dr. Gignilliat:


Well, I yell at them a lot, I guess, is one of the things that we do in class. There’s a lot of screaming, a lot of yelling. I’m joking. Yeah, that’s a great question. I mean, our classes here are so elongated in the sense of a semester that it’s very hard to communicate the texture of that to someone that’s not been in it. 

I just started the Psalms class today. I handed them out a quote from Athanasius to Marcellinus to reading the Psalms. I said, “I want you to read this quote here and let’s compare and contrast this with someone like Hermann Gunkel.” They would want to read the Psalms within their religious historical particularity in the ancient near east and fix them back there in the historical particularity where they’re properly left. Because Athanasius is going to want us to read the Psalms in such a way as these are words from God to us on our lips right now. We might call that a “Christian hermeneutical instinct” to read it in Athanasius’s way. 

So, when it comes to the prophets I think it’s very similar. I want the prophets to be an entry point for the students to enter into ... I mean, I hate to ... this is an overly used phrase, but to enter into that strange new world of the bible that Karl Barth talked about. A new world, a world that challenges our own basic instincts and presuppositions. It forces us to think about a God-centered universe that takes humanity in view, doesn’t displace humanity, but views human need within that God-shaped universe, a kind of robust ... and I’m using this term very loosely, but a robust metaphysic about God’s being and the way in which that shapes our whole view of the world. That’s the otherness that I think the prophets allow our students.

One of the things, this is funny, we just talked about this in class today. One of the things I encourage my students is the prophets and obviously the Apostle Paul fits right in line with this, they’re going to challenge us when it comes to our ministries to think in these terms. “Are my words in service of THE Word? Or is THE Word in service of my words?” And I think a prophetically shaped ministry is constantly forcing us to think about our words are in service to THE Word. That’s one of the fascinating features, especially from a Christian reading of the prophets. That the Word of God in the prophets actually has an agency to it. Think about the Word of the Lord came to Jeremiah. The Word of the Lord was to Jonah. There’s this sending agency, the Father sends his Word, which is his very being and yet distinct, to his people as an agent. I mean, that’s so Christologically rich to think about the Word of God itself coming to us.

And I think that’s what I’m hoping students in the classroom get a sense of this ... And I just told them today ... lifelong journey of entering into the reality of God’s Word present and manifest in Jesus in our churches. That’s what people ... I’m a parishioner, I’m in desperate need of that. And I know many people are today. We don’t need pablum anymore. I mean, we’ve had enough of that. And we need the life-giving Word of Jesus and the prophets force us to that again and again.


>>Kristen Padilla:


I’d love to get you to talk more about teaching and preaching, as I mentioned, you are a canon theologian at the Cathedral Church of the Advent. You teach regularly. You preach. And you’re also in conversation with a lot of our alumni who are in pastoral ministry. So, what have been some of the challenges that you’ve seen on the ground as it relates to preaching and teaching during such a time as the pandemic and a number of other challenges? And what word of encouragement do you share with alumni and would you share with our listeners today as it relates to the ministry of teaching and preaching during challenging times?


>>Dr. Gignilliat:


Yeah, I mean, I’d have to kind of think more about the content of some of these conversations. And again, I’m slower to make these sort of broad sweeping analysis of our ... It’s just easier to see things in retrospect than in prospect. But I do think a faithful attendance to the preaching and teaching of God’s Word, even in a moment where it might feel like we need to do something better. In other words, this is crisis time. This is go-time now. I mean, people are suffering, people are burying their loved ones in ways that we didn’t expect to happen in the sort of normal warp and woof of life.

So, now we need to do something better. I mean, I think that might be part of the challenge, a call to a steady faithfulness before the instruments that God has promised made gospel promises to his people, namely Word and Sacrament, prayer, I mean, community, common life together. So, I think the ways in which liturgy and worship and preaching continue to shape us are very important and I think ... I’ve never really thought about it this way but once you’re in the deep end of the pool and you’re flailing, it’s hard at that point in time to being to be shaped and formed. Now it’s survival time.

I think maybe I would encourage all of us, pastors and parishioners, we want to be shaped and formed by liturgy, by life together, by Word and Sacrament now for those deep end moments. The habituation of that, that shapes the way in which we are now prepared to move into those moments. Of course, I’m in a liturgical setting, it’s a little bit more formalized than maybe some of our listeners, but I’ve been surprised at how quickly the words of the liturgy come to me in these challenging moments. “Lord, open our lips and let our mouths show forth thy praise.” And the list can go on and on.

I think that sort of steady faithfulness to being formed and shaped in the habits of the faith are important, especially when there might be a kind of impulse to do something that’s better, because I don’t know if there is anything that’s better. There’s not.


>>Doug Sweeney:


If you don’t mind, Mark, I’d love to conclude our interview with you with a couple of more personal questions. Our listeners know we always end these interviews by asking our guests what the Lord has been teaching them recently. But before we get to that question I’ve got a related question for you that I would want to know if I wasn’t already your friend. I have a pretty good guess as to how you’ll answer this. I know you and Naomi have gone through rough patches in your own lives. You know what it’s like to try to find a way forward, to try to be resilient through really difficult times. 

I wonder as an Old Testament professor, as an Old Testament scholar who has spent a lot of time with the prophets – what difference have they made in your own life? Have you yourself, has Professor Mark Gignilliat learned some things that have helped you in your relationship with God and your life and your ministry by studying the prophets?


>>Dr. Gignilliat:


Gosh, that’s very personal. (laughs) I mean, I would say in our own family and in my own life, especially over the past year and really over the past couple of weeks in an acute way you just have to have these hard questions and conversations with the Lord about whether or not ... Gosh, I have to be careful how I say this ... whether or not I really believe in the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. 

It’s everything. If I don’t have that, Paul says, “Then we’re of all people most miserable.” And I think about this in relationship to my kids and my wife and what are my hopes for them? And I want my kids to succeed by all the kind of standards that most parents would want them to succeed by. But I would say over these past few weeks I’ve just become acutely aware, are my kids being shaped as pilgrims for another time and another place? How do I do that? How do I model that for them? Are their affections being raised for the Lord? Are mine? 

In other words, I teach for a living, I pay the bills by doing this stuff. And I love it. I mean, I feel so blessed. But are my affections linked to it? Not in a sort of maudlin sentimental way but in a way that’s deeply rooted in the affairs of the heart and the mind? Those are acute questions that I wish I could say the circumstances of our family or whatever have let us know settle this. The Gignilliat family just settled this, now we’re resolved. Like an Edwards resolution or something. But I know I’ll have to wrestle with it again in a month or so and it’s just part of the dynamic of being a pilgrim is having to wrestle with that tension between being indigenous in a place, located here, and I’m also not a full citizen here. I’m a citizen of another place. The prophets didn’t have a choice but to live in those terms. That’s the way in which God, by his calling on them, demanded that they live in that particular dynamic. 

So, yeah, I would say I’m feeling and thinking about those things acutely. I need the Lord. We all do. To raise our affections again to another place and another time, because how sad if we put all of our hopes and energies into things of this world that we know will pass away? Think about Psalm 103. “The place remembers their name no more.” (laughs) Think about a humbling turn of phrase. You come, you go, the generation comes and goes, and they don’t remember your name anymore. I mean, there you go.

So, I think that’s what maybe our moment ... There’s a silver lining in our pandemic moment. I think the silver lining is being drawn into truth of our heavenly hopes.


>>Kristen Padilla:


Mark, as Doug has already mentioned, we always like to end the show by asking our guests what the Lord has been teaching you these days that would encourage our listeners. And you’ve already shared with us so many encouraging words from God’s Word and your own life. But is there anything else in particular that, “Man, the Lord has just been teaching me this,” and that you would feel compelled to share with us as we end the show today?


>>Dr. Gignilliat:


Do you mind if I just read a little bit of a Psalm? Is that okay?


>>Doug Sweeney:


Mm hmm (Affirmative).


>>Dr. Gignilliat:


Psalms have been a refuge. [inaudible 00:24:05] The Psalms almost become like a place. I mean, they’re a place in which you reside. Here is one that’s been special in the Gignilliat house. Can I just leave this with you and that will be it? 

Psalm 25

To you, O Lord, I lift up my soul.
O my God, in you I trust;
  let me not be put to shame;
  let not my enemies exult over me.
Indeed, none who wait for you shall be put to shame;
  they shall be ashamed who are wantonly treacherous.
Make me to know your ways, O Lord;
  teach me your paths.
Lead me in your truth and teach me,
  for you are the God of my salvation;
  for you I wait all the day long.
Remember your mercy, O Lord, and your steadfast love,
  for they have been from of old.
Remember not the sins of my youth or my transgressions;
  according to your steadfast love remember me,
  for the sake of your goodness, O Lord!
Good and upright is the Lord;
  therefore he instructs sinners in the way.
He leads the humble in what is right,
  and teaches the humble his way.
All the paths of the Lord are steadfast love and faithfulness,
  for those who keep his covenant and his testimonies.
For your name's sake, O Lord,
  pardon my guilt, for it is great.
Who is the man who fears the Lord?
  Him will he instruct in the way that he should choose.
His soul shall abide in well-being,
  and his offspring shall inherit the land.
The friendship of the Lord is for those who fear him,
  and he makes known to them his covenant.
My eyes are ever toward the Lord,
  for he will pluck my feet out of the net.
Turn to me and be gracious to me,
  for I am lonely and afflicted.
The troubles of my heart are enlarged;
  bring me out of my distresses.
Consider my affliction and my trouble,
  and forgive all my sins.
Consider how many are my foes,
  and with what violent hatred they hate me.
Oh, guard my soul, and deliver me!
  Let me not be put to shame, for I take refuge in you.
May integrity and uprightness preserve me,
  for I wait for you.
Redeem Israel, O God,
  out of all his troubles.

Amen.


>>Doug Sweeney:


Amen. Thanks be to God for his holy and live-giving word. You have been listening to Professor Mark Gignilliat, one of our student’s favorite teachers here at Beeson Divinity School. Dr. Gignilliat teaches Old Testament, teaches the Hebrew language, he serves as the Canon Theologian at the Cathedral Church of the Advent here in Birmingham. He’s a beloved member of our community and a dear friend. Thanks for being with us, Mark. And thanks for tuning in, listeners. Hang in there. We love you. Goodbye for now. 



>>Kristen Padilla:


You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.