Beeson Podcast, Episode #567 Dr. Ronald Sterling Sept. 21, 2021 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. We thank you for spending this time with us each week. Today we’ll continue with our three week series on the theme of the recently released Beeson Magazine, “Resilience in Ministry;” featuring Beeson Divinity School faculty writers. Before we jump in let me give you just a couple of reminders. First, if you can’t join us in person for chapel on Tuesdays, we would love to have you participate via live stream at www.BeesonDivinity.com/live. Second, our spring admission deadline is October 1st. So, if you or someone you love wants to join the Beeson community this spring, don’t delay. Visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/admission. All right. Kristen, would you please introduce this beloved faculty guest and get our conversation started? >>Kristen Padilla: Yes, thank you, Doug. Hello, everyone. We have Dr. Ronald Sterling with us on the show today. He is lecturer in Spiritual Formation and Director of Student Services at Beeson Divinity School, where he is a two-time graduate. Dr. Sterling is also the pastor of St. John AME Church here in Birmingham. He is a beloved friend and colleague. Dr. Sterling, we’re so grateful that you’ve given us your time to be on the show today. >>Dr. Sterling: Thank you, Kristen. This is really a blessing to be here. Hello, Dr. Sweeney. How are you today, sir? >>Doug Sweeney: Hello, Dr. Sterling. I am doing well. Better for being with you. >>Dr. Sterling: Well, bless you, sir. You’re so kind. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, some of our listeners will already know you. You’ve been a friend on the podcast before. And so we just want to jump into the conversation today to talk about this article that you contributed to the 2021 Beeson Magazine. When I approached you about contributing, I asked you to speak as a pastor to pastors who are in the trenches in ministry during challenging times. So, I wanted you to speak from your pastoral experience. I would love to begin there. You’ve been a pastor for many years now. So, could you talk to us just about your experience in pastoral ministry? Specifically, which experiences you drew from as you wrote this article? >>Dr. Sterling: Great. Thank you so much Kristen. I’ve been a pastor for about 27 years now. Over the years the Lord has placed me in different pastoral settings. I’ve actually been a pastor of a small church, which has five members, and I’ve had two medium sized churches with an average membership of about 250. What I noticed is that some of the dynamics in settings, such as the people, the desire for spiritual growth, and the church buildings really needed some repair. The small church needed repair, in addition to the church that I now pastor at St. John. In each of those settings the work that needed to be done was much greater than what I could actually do in my own strength. So, it’s in those times when it’s important to understand who called you into ministry or any other ministry and that the Lord actually does provide grace and manna for the journey. >>Doug Sweeney: Pastor Sterling, in your article you underscore the assurance of God’s call on your life and the way in which being sure that the Lord has called you to this work helps you, gives you confidence, and bolsters you for the enduring of difficult times in ministry. Kristen and I thought that was a beautiful reminder. But we wondered, could you tell our listeners just a little bit more about that? What’s the relationship in your thinking between God’s calling on your life as a pastor and your ability to be resilient and fruitful during the hard times? >>Dr. Sterling: Thank you so much, Dean Sweeney, for that question. What I’ve learned over the years is that God is faithful. Of course, that comes through trials and tribulations. That comes through you not understanding why things are happening. But then God himself is letting you know that, “I am with you and I’ll bring you through those situations.” So, he uses us in ways that’s truly beyond our understanding. Sometimes we’re looking for the fruit of our labor in membership or even a church building, a church construction, and the Lord is actually there and he’ll bless the membership. He’ll bless us with the buildings. But God is interested in the growth, that we grow in grace, that we grow in our relationship with him. And as we grow in our relationship with the Lord, then that helps those that God will entrust also into our care. So, he has been faithful. There are many things that he’s promised me. Not just in ministry as far as church, but also in my personal life. Because when I got saved and my household was not saved but I continued to pray, continued to persevere, continued to allow God to use me in that setting as well, and of course he brought ... My wife is saved and my family. So, here again that’s God showing himself strong. >>Kristen Padilla: One of the things that we wanted to emphasize in the issue, and this is something I tried to bring out in my “Just From the Editor” piece. But that is that faithfulness in ministry or this thriving in ministry which is a term that we use a lot today is not necessarily synonymous with the kind of success that the world would, how the world would define success. You know? It’s not quantified necessarily in material or numerical ways. But as, rather, judged by faithfulness in ministry. So, I wonder if you can speak to this? I don’t know if you’ve ever had a personal experience where you struggled with that dynamic in your own ministry, but I’m specifically thinking about those pastors who are not having the kind of worldly success in ministry and they just need a word of encouragement about what it means to really thrive in ministry. >>Dr. Sterling: I think what happens sometimes is that we tend to want to compare or make a comparison. But the Lord has not called me, personally, to compare myself with anyone other than through Jesus the Christ and those he used in ministry. And so for example when I was pastoring the church with only five members. The Lord called me to be faithful in that. And so I kind of think that when you’re dealing with success as the world sees it, that you’re actually making some type of comparison. But he did not allow me to do that. He was able to take that small church and he actually grew the church as we continued to love on one another, to meet the people where they were, then God gave the increase. So, here again he showed himself to be faithful. And as you’re faithful with a little then God tends to bless you with much. I believe also that character is going to be crucial. Oftentimes we may think that we want something other than what God has placed us in, in that particular setting, but our character is not always ready for that new setting. So, as we remain faithful to God, and just allow him to bless us as we’re faithful to him, then we’ll continue to see the glory of God. Avoiding trying to be successful according to the world, it can really, really save you a whole lot of oppression and sleepless nights, because here again, God is pleased with you, and that’s what you want to do. You want to be able to please God regardless of the size of the membership, regardless of the size of the church, God is just so loving and faithful to those in whom he’s called. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. Sterling, some of our listeners will know already that you teach Spiritual Formation here at Beeson. And you teach our students about spiritual disciplines. We wonder, do you think spiritual disciplines help us through the hard times in life and ministry? And what do our listeners who don’t get to take your class on spiritual formation need to know about the relationship between the spiritual disciplines? Maybe even tell them what they are – probably not all of our listeners even know what spiritual disciplines are. But what difference are they supposed to make in the way we get through difficult times in life and ministry? >>Dr. Sterling: Thank you for that question, Dean Sweeney. I would define spiritual disciplines as those practices of the spiritual life that God uses to grow us into a deeper awareness of who he is. Thus, a more intimate relationship with him. The disciplines will help place us actually before the grace of God so that we can not only learn about ourselves but also learn about God. And many people actually practice the disciplines, but they may not call them spiritual disciplines. For example, believers will pray. Well, prayer is a spiritual discipline, but it’s not identified as such. There are times when we’re practicing the spiritual disciplines and we have time set aside, but generally something goes on during the day but you’ll start to pray, you’ll pray without ceasing. So, that’s a discipline in and of itself. So, we’re just grateful how the Lord will use those particular disciplines like for me, for example, I’ve always journeyed since I became a believer. Well, I didn’t know journaling was a spiritual discipline. But it’s just that I would need to write my feelings, my emotions. A lot of my prayers are in my journals. Where I pray and petition God for different things and of course I do the journaling I also have the opportunity to go back and look at some of the conversations I’ve had with God, and it’s like, “Oh Lord, I’ve been praying about this for a long time.” And so God kind of helps you to understand there’s prayers that have been fulfilled and when you look at journaling. For me journaling encompasses many of the other disciplines. Like for instance, if I’m writing than that also gives me an opportunity to meditate; meditate on scripture, meditate on what God is saying to me. It also brings conviction. It causes me to confess my sins that I didn’t even realize. Sometimes I find myself maybe it’s just a little [inaudible 00:10:49] and complaining, and you can see it in the writing. It’s like, “Okay, I’m not being thankful right now.” That helps me and it’s such a blessing. >>Kristen Padilla: On the cover of our magazine, we have you on the cover. But it’s not what maybe some people would expect. You don’t see your face. We have a picture of you and your church from the back. You’re at a pulpit and you’re preaching to what seems to be an empty audience, an empty church building. That really captures, I think, what so many pastors have been dealing with since the pandemic. Namely, that they haven’t been able to be in person with their people. I want to ask you, Dr. Sterling, how are you encouraging pastors or even people who aren’t even in ministry, but they’re experiencing the deep suffering that this COVID pandemic has brought on? So, what’s your word of encouragement to them? >>Dr. Sterling: That God is sovereign. God sees the pandemic. He saw it before it came. He knows when it’s going to leave. But he is still sovereign. Even though we’re preaching to cameras and it’s being pre-recorded, being sent out, and some of us are ministering through live streaming, but we don’t want to limit God. God can work in and through anything, but we just must be open to him. We miss the gathering, of course, the warm bodies. We’re able to see sometimes the warm smiles, but it’s also allowed us to reach people in ways that we didn’t even think that we could. So, even in the midst of the pandemic, God is still God, and he can still reach his people, but then we’re required to be open to God. Allow God to give us the wisdom, give us the insight as to how we can continue to minister. So, even though they closed the doors of the church, they cannot close the Kingdom of the Church. And so God is just faithful in that. >>Kristen Padilla: You end your piece with a hymn by Charles Wesley. Recently, you came by my office and we were having a conversation about your church. As you were telling me about some of the things you’ve encountered, recently in trying to get back together, problems that would have had me just kind of fall apart. You responded to each one with, “Amen, Lord.” (laughter) and so I would love to know the role that praise and thanksgiving has in enduring suffering? >>Dr. Sterling: Very good. What I’ve learned in the midst of suffering is that when we praise God, lifting him up, magnifying him, acknowledging who he is, then it says to God, “Lord, I see you bigger than my situation.” And when we can see God bigger than our situation, then it really does bring forth praise and just adoration to God. And so he receives that, and he helps to take you above your feelings and your emotions. And there are times, praise God, when our plans really just don’t work out. And so the best plans we have ... And he kind of catches you off guard sometimes. The Lord has just given me the phrase to say, “Amen, Lord.” You know? In other words, I’m saying to God, it’s like, “Lord, this really did not work out, but it’s okay, because you’re a God, you’re sovereign, and you alone are worthy to be praised. Lord, I’m going to lift you up and I’m going to magnify you because you’re God.” And just a quick example. We are back in the church and we started the first Sunday in August. We have an updated video system. We have an updated sound system. And we’ve got a young guy that’s trained a man to monitor and to work with that. He texts me on the way to church that Sunday morning and said that he had a migraine headache and he could not come to church. Well, no one else knows how to even turn the system on. I go, “Amen, Lord.” And so the Lord just gave me the insight, the wisdom, to call the owner of the company who installed the system. I called him and it was like ten minutes till 9:00 and he says, “I’m eating breakfast. What time does your service start?” I said, “Ten o’clock.” And by ten minutes to ten he was at our church and operated our system. (laughs) I was like, “Amen, Lord. You are really working things out.” So, praise has a way to taking us above our situations. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. Sterling, we always like to conclude these interviews by asking our guests what the Lord has been teaching them recently and that’s what I want to ask you. But I wonder if I could ask it in a two-fold way? I’d love for you to bless our listeners with what the Lord’s been telling you recently, and teaching you recently. At the same time I’d love for our listeners to hear from you about your own suffering in the last year, year and a half, in the midst of all the turmoil that so many of us have been living through and suffering through recently. What has your experience been like? Has the things that the Lord has been teaching you, have they been related at all to your ongoing experience of taking up your cross every day and following the Lord, and participating in his redemptive suffering for the world? >>Dr. Sterling: I think one of the things that the Lord has really ministered to me over the last 16 months, I guess, is that we must maintain our vertical relationship with him. Life is full of trials and tribulations. They may come with different names and may come in different phases or ways of life. But it still life. And our vertical relationship with him helps to sustain us through whatever may come. James says, “In this life you’re going to have trials and tribulations, but we can yet count it all joy.” But the joy can only come as you are in that vertical relationship with the Lord, intimacy with him, seeking him for his wisdom, seeking him for his guidance, and just wanting to be close to him and to be in his presence. So, that helps. Some of the suffering that I’ve experienced would be not being able to really be in that personal, that closeness maybe with my congregation. I can call them on the telephone. Every now and then I would send them a card. Some would be able to get on Zoom. Then you have your elders who they’re not savvy enough to be able to deal with the current technology. That’s a suffering for me when I’m not able to reach them, when I’m not able to hear their voices. To be able to see them come into the church maybe on their cane or in a wheelchair, because church is everything to them, and as a pastor that’s kind of grievous to my heart – knowing that God is with them, but just not to be able to make that communication. So, sometimes just calling them on the telephone. They’re excited to hear my voice. I’m excited to hear their voice. And that kind of blesses. So, that’s kind of a suffering for me, not really being able to feed them, in a sense, that I was accustomed to, but still being able to feed them but just in a different way. >>Doug Sweeney: And has the Lord shown himself faithful to you in a special way? I mean, I would think maybe there’s an obvious answer there that’s “yes,” because you hadn’t had to pastor in quite those circumstances before. But how can we end on a note of encouragement for folks who say, “Oh yeah, I can relate to being a part of a congregation where people can’t get together anymore, and the seniors are suffering from loneliness and so on.” Any uplifting inspiring word of encouragement about how God has shown himself to be faithful to you and your people even in the midst of the pandemic? >>Dr. Sterling: Yes. One of the things that we do, too, is that we have a prayer call. So, we have an early morning prayer call when people can call in and actually get particular prayers, specific prayers, petitions before God, and so I intercede so they get a chance to hear me then. And that also helps. But I would really like to just encourage pastors to know that God sees and God knows that as we continue to be faithful to the Lord that even in the midst of a pandemic that God is still working. A lot of churches have had a lot of members to transition during this pandemic. That’s painful, a lot of mourning. But God still grows us even in those moments. The grace of God is sufficient to strengthen us. I would just encourage my sisters and my brothers to keep pressing on. To be like Paul. Even though Paul talks about the different things he’d gone through but he still found that God’s grace was sufficient for the journey. So, don’t ever give up on God. Because God is not giving up on us. >>Doug Sweeney: Amen. These things are true for you, too, our dear listeners. Thanks for tuning in. You’ve been listening to Dr. Ronald Sterling. He is lecturer in Spiritual Formation and Director of Student Services here at Beeson Divinity School. He is also the pastor of St. John, African Methodist Episcopal Church in Birmingham, and a dear friend of both Kristen’s and myself. Thank you, Dr. Sterling, for being with us. Thank you, our listeners, for tuning in. We’re praying for you, so please do pray for us. We love you, and we say goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.