Beeson Podcast, Episode #565 Dr. Carol Griggs Sept. 7, 2021 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. You are in for a treat on the podcast today. Kristen will introduce today’s guest in a minute. For now, let me say that she is one of our favorite Beeson graduates. We love it when we have Beeson alumni on the show. They make us so proud and we enjoy hearing about what God is doing in their lives. Three quick announcements before we get started. First, our first preview day of the academic year is September 17th. Preview days are the best way to experience all Beeson has to offer. Attendees will have their application fees waives, registration is free. So, sign up today at www.BeesonDivinity.com/previewday. Second, our Lay Academy courses start soon at the end of this month. So, sign up for a six week course by one of our amazing faculty members. Go to www.BeesonDivinity.com/layacademy. Third, and finally, our alumni conference is also coming soon, November 4-6. Dr. Donald Guthrie, who was on the show with us back on August 24th, will speak on Resilience in Ministry. Register at www.BeesonDivinity.com/events. All right, Kristen, will you tell us who we have on the show today, and get our conversation started? >>Kristen Padilla: Yes, Doug. Thank you. Hello everyone. We’re so glad to have you with us. We have, as Doug has already said, a Beeson alumni on the show today. Her name is Dr. Carol Griggs. She is the Director of Operations of University Health Services at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. She also earned a PhD from the University of Alabama, here in Birmingham. Dr. Griggs, we’re so excited that you agreed to come on the show, take time out of your very busy schedule. So, welcome to the Beeson Podcast. >>Dr. Griggs: Thank you. I’m happy to be here. >>Kristen Padilla: We always like to begin by allowing our guest to introduce yourself more fully. So, if you could share with us a little bit of your story. Where you are from, your spiritual journey, background, family? Whatever you want to say to help us know you better. >>Dr. Griggs: Absolutely. As you already told everyone, I’m Carol. I am a Beeson alum, the class of 2011. That is certainly something that I’m honored to hold onto and acknowledge just as a part of my background. I’m originally from Mississippi. So, I grew up in Mississippi. Once I got to kind of college age I went on to college in Memphis, Tennessee and then joined the military and did some other things that I think we might get into a little bit later. I am married. My husband is actually a professor of Old Testament Theology at Birmingham Theological Seminary. We still have our ties down there, and so he’s doing that. But he does have the opportunity to teach virtually, which is great. We have three beautiful daughters who keep us very busy, as anyone that has children can certainly attest to. And you know, we are just a family that loves serving the Lord in any way that God sees fit to use us. We definitely view our move to Madison, Wisconsin as yet another endeavor for the Lord to use us. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. Griggs, I got to know you just a little bit before you moved up to Wisconsin. And of course I’ve heard lots of wonderful things about you. But I don’t think I knew until Kristen was helping me prepare for our interview with you today that you’re also a veteran. During the Iraq War you served in the US Army as a nutritionist, medical response team member, and hospital administrator. You were awarded the Meritorious Service Medal for your service to the 10th Combat Support Hospital, 43rd Brigade, during a 12 month tour. Wow. So, what led you both into the field of medicine and to serve the Army in this way? Tell us a little bit about that experience? >>Dr. Griggs: Yeah, absolutely. So, growing up as a child, one of the primary things that I always wanted to do was help people. I always saw that as something that I could directly contribute to in a very robust and immediate way. And medicine seemed like a natural fit for that. When people are sick, when people are ill, when people don’t feel well medicine often was the answer. So, growing up I naturally told myself, “I’m going to be a doctor.” Because that’s a great way to help people. So, I graduated high school, went on to college, and focused on pre med and so bio chemistry, and while I was in college my first year ... and I also played basketball in college. So, I had this weird freshman of basketball and medicine and it was very complicated to say the least. But that was also the year of 9/11. So, nationally we all took a step back to really reflect on what was happening, what the state of our nation was, and what that meant in the hearts of people. And for me, at that particular point, it pivoted kind of my trajectory. Yes, I was focusing on medicine, yes, I was focused in sports, but also I had this great desire to also contribute to the betterment of my country. And so in really kind of pondering and thinking through that it felt like a natural move to really look at the military. And how can I serve? And so I did. And interestingly enough, they needed soldiers. And so I went on to a recruitment center and it did not take long. In fact, they had be signed up within eight weeks. And I was gone within 12. (laughs) So, that was a really interesting time in my life. I can say that my ideas of serving the country and the reality of that were dramatically different. As a young student in college I had this idea that I would go on and focus in medicine and go into the Army and I can kind of still hold onto this civilian reality. When in fact, going to the military, what I didn’t account for was what the reality of war actually meant. And so I did, I got to my first assignment and within six months I was deployed. I was off in Kuwait, setting up a field hospital and we were there for eight months. That was, needless to say, catastrophic on my own experience as a young 20 year old. I was way too young to really know what life was about, let alone be in war. But I did it. And honestly that was really a time that I grew in faith. When I got to Kuwait, interestingly enough, the noise that we experience in the United States of America, just the busyness of everything, that’s all silenced when you get to other countries, and especially in a war. And so you have a lot of time to think, a lot of time to reflect. And a lot of time to actually just spend with God. So, I spent that eight or nine months doing just that. Yes, my daytime job, if you will, being in war was certainly setting up this field hospital and servicing people, but my life really became one that was focused on serving God. And really, really understanding what that meant. And so it was a great experience as well as a devastating experience. And we finished that tour, we got back to the states. I had two years at Fort Carson, Colorado, which were amazing, and then I was off to war again in Baghdad. And yet, again, a catastrophic, yet, very revealing experience. And honestly, my second tour in war, what that did was it completely shifted my trajectory. I was in a war, I was serving in medicine, I worked at [inaudible 00:08:21] hospital. That experience, though I loved medicine, that’s probably the worst side of medicine that you’ll see. I mean, we were a field hospital, but servicing in this facility that was really servicing these Iraq soldiers, as well as American soldiers, as well as Iraqi civilians. And that was a really, really devastating experience in medicine. It made me grow more in my faith. And not only my faith, but also seeing young people dying. In a war, at that point, at the end of life you really begin to see how significant faith or the idea of an afterlife is for people when they get to that point where they’re at the end. And so being there in that moment, seeing that, and not just once or twice, but seeing it over and over again. It really made me realize that with all the gifts that I have, because I do think that I was a pretty good medical professional, but with all the gifts that I had, and the best that I could do, is potentially patch a body that would allow a person to go on in life for a little longer, but our ultimate end still means that we’re transitioning somewhere. And so really pondering what the human soul is and what that means, and what that transition means was a pivotal point in my life. That really made me transition to some extent away from medicine and really interested in the human soul and spirituality and what that concept is. And so when I got back to the United States I actually left medicine for a while. And really focused on divinity, theology, and religion. >>Kristen Padilla: That’s a follow up to my question. What led you to Beeson Divinity School, specifically? You kind of gave the ground work of what the Lord was doing in your life those years, but why Beeson? And the degree that you pursued here? And then how did your time at Beeson, the training you received, how has that helped form you into the person you are today and has shaped the work you do today? >>Dr. Griggs: Yeah. Absolutely. When I was in the military and really, really pondering what religion means, what theology means, what the human soul is, and all these things, I did realize that there was great significance in not only religiosity but our spirituality. And kind of this idea of who we are by way of the omnipotent being that we serve. And when I looked at divinity schools and looked at different schools that were out there, me personally, I really needed somewhere there was interdenominational. I needed somewhere that really didn’t isolate our kind of studies and the way that we understand things to one denomination. I really needed this robust understanding across the spectrum of Christianity. And honestly Beeson was the ... I ranked all the schools and Beeson was at the top of the list. I made some phone calls and called some folks that I knew that were familiar with Beeson. And Beeson had the top rates. And then of course I looked at the faculty and oh my goodness, I was just blown away by the faculty of Beeson back then. So, that was a natural choice for me. And so I made that choice. I prayed about it. And it just all kind of came together. Interestingly, it came together at a point in my life where not only did I want to study these things, but I needed them for me. I’d been out of the Army for maybe four years or maybe a little bit longer at that point. It might have been six years actually. But I really needed this time where not only would I study, but it would be a time of spiritual formation for me. And when I looked at Beeson’s curriculum that’s what I saw. Yes, there’s rigor, as there would be with any academic degree, but it was really spiritual formation. It was really this opportunity to spend time engaging, but allow that to actually impact my heart and impact who I am as a person. And that was kind of the primary thing that contributed to me choosing Beeson. >>Doug Sweeney: And as we mentioned at the top of the show, you went on after Beeson and did a PhD during which time it seems to me you did a really nice combination of your interest in medicine on the one hand and divinity on the other hand. I know a little bit already about your dissertation research, but I want you to share it if you don’t mind, in a nutshell, with our listeners. Let me give them the title of your dissertation, “Religion, Spirituality, Faith, Centeredness, and Wellbeing: An Exploration of How These Elements Impact Individual Wellbeing.” What did you learn in that dissertation that might help our listeners? >>Dr. Griggs: Oh wow. I think I learned so much. Again, when I engage in these things, it’s often like this journey for me to explore more of me and to understand more of me and all those good things. And so there are so many things we can talk about in the research. So, the primary objective, at least for me, was really to understand how significant religion, spirituality, and faith are when we think about our own individual wellbeing. And the reason I really wanted to understand that is because I think that so often as Christians we have the Bible. We have this amazing tool, right? And we have our fellowships. We have these amazing experiences. And we have our goals, right? We have this amazing direction. And when we look at all these things we feel like that’s the totality of what our existence as Christians is, but sometimes we forget, “Now what does all this mean about me every single day when I get out of the bed and I’m going through my day? What does this mean for me in regards to how I take care of myself and how I relate to others? What does all of this mean?” It’s easy to be a “good Christian” and you read your Bible every day. It’s really easy to be a “good Christian” and you go to church every Sunday. And you’re there every Wednesday. It’s really easy to be a “good Christian” and you have these Christian goals of where you want to be in life or what you want to do. But again, when we think about getting up every single day and interacting with the world, what does that mean? What does all that mean in who we are? So, when I embarked on this study that’s actually the dynamic I wanted to understand. When we think about wellbeing and everything that means – that’s physical wellbeing, mental wellbeing, social wellbeing, it’s financial wellbeing ... There are all these elements of wellbeing. What does our faith, our spirituality, and religion mean for that paradigm? And that was the journey that I somewhat embarked on. And what did I find? That there is a connection, right? (laughs) I found the beginning of a research project is basically what I found. Which in my opinion that’s what most dissertations are. At least qualitative and quantitative dissertations are basically you’re going to end with a question to start your next study. And I think that’s kind of where I landed. And so I did discover in the research that for most people that really find a connection in a religion and I did limit my study to only folks that were identified or attached to a religious organization that was recognizable. There were some populations that I did have to exclude just because of the limitations of the study. But I did find that within multiple groups, and I did have a broad array of religious persuasion and so there weren’t all Christians, although the vast majority of my population was Christian. But I did look at different religious persuasions. And within that paradigm I did find that for all of them, all of the areas of wellbeing are linked to the foundation of their religion, spirituality, or faith. So, if we think about the actual research itself I actually designed what we call in social and behavioral science a wellbeing model. And in this wellbeing model you have to look at what you perceive to be all of the things that are connected in individual wellbeing so that we can kind of understand what that is, but then also people can start to break down what their wellbeing is. And so in the model that I designed, there are three areas. There is one area that’s in the center, which we can talk about in a second. But then you have another area or another bucket that specifically focuses on how we take care of our self. There’s another bucket that focuses on how we relate to others. And then the last bucket is kind of how we relate to life. So, that’s goals, purposes, all that good stuff. And in the theory itself, what I propose and I think the research supports it, is that in our wellbeing all of us have one primary part of our lives, or concept, that is the center. And in that center, at that center if you’re able to find balance within that, whatever that thing is, it has a positive contribution on these other areas in our lives. So, that centeredness can help us to have a positive impact on how we relate to self, how we relate to others, and how we think about life in general. And there are a lot of things that can be in the center. For some people it could be money. For some people it could be other people, like relationships. So on and so forth. For some people it can actually be academics and education. The idea of being smart and intellectualism. But for some people that is spirituality and faith and religion. And when we look at the people that have spiritual, faith, and religion as that center, what does that do? Does it allow that balance to be there? It doesn’t mean that when you say “balance” it doesn’t mean that everything is equal all the time. That’s not what it means. But it does mean that you have a healthy balance and you’re able to appropriately focus on the areas that you need to at the point that you need to in life. And so what I did find in the study is that folks that do have religion, spirituality, and faith there, they do have that really good balance where even when external factors impact them that foundation helps to keep them steady, even in the midst of the chaos. Right? Now, I can tell you in follow up conversations, not studies, with people that didn’t have that as their center, other things could throw them off really easily. So, for people who had finance as their center, all it took was a negative impact at work. Right? Or unexpected bills. And their entire paradigm was thrown off. For people who had relationships there, like socialization, all it took was someone not liking them or someone not viewing them in the way that they wanted to be viewed and their entire paradigm was thrown off. Even people that had intellectualism there. For them all it took was a bad grade. And the entire paradigm was thrown off. And so I found in the study that it does serve people well if religion, spirituality, and faith is that thing that really centers them. They are able to find that better balance in life. And that contributes to good mental health as well as life satisfaction. >>Kristen Padilla: I know in a minute we want to ask about how your research interfaces with the work that you do today, but before we get there I want to transition to talk about the work that you do at the University. As I mentioned, at the top of the show, you serve as the Director of Operations of a major university’s health services. And listeners, she began this job at the beginning of a global pandemic, which I just cannot imagine. But you have done it. And you’re doing it today. So, tell us about your role as Director and then this is a big question, I know, but tell us about what it’s been like directing this office in light of COVID and all of the challenges that your team has had to face and how your team and the university has responded to those challenges? >>Dr. Griggs: Yeah, that’s a big question. (laughs) So, I did transition, or my family and I transitioned in August of last year during the pandemic. I was actually called specifically to help with the university’s response to COVID. And so it wasn’t like I was going to come in and do all these other things. I really was called to focus specifically on COVID. Though, I do have all these other things that I have to do. So, as the Director of Operations for the last year my primary focus has been on how the institution responds to the pandemic. And so that includes COVID testing. It includes our safety protocols. It includes all the public health things that are needed to really reduce viral transmission and disease prevalence and incidents on campus. And that’s part of my academic background as well. I’ve studied epidemiology. I’ve studied population and community health. And so I’ve really had an opportunity to bring some of that into a lot of the work that I do. But my standard job is really to lead this complex organization that has medical services, mental health services, campus prevention and programming services, we have a marketing department, and we have all of these different things and we technically are the on campus healthcare organization that meets the needs of the students. And so it’s like having a little primary care clinic, if you will, within the eco system of the campus. But we are very complex. We do have specialty services and all those great things. And so that’s my day job. But my night job has been everything related to COVID. And so I think speaking to what my experience has been or our experience, I think that hear at U of W Madison our experience has been the exact same experience that every institution of higher education has faced during this pandemic. We are stuck in a paradigm where our primary purpose is to service students to really enhance their academic experience for this limited time that they’re on a college campus. And being in a global pandemic has shifted that paradigm because students can’t, or couldn’t, at least be here the way that they wanted to be. And so it required a lot of pivoting to a lot of virtual things, but also for the students that were here it required a lot of micromanaging of a disease or a virus. And that comes with a lot. Not only did you have to focus on the physical needs, but we had a lot of mental health and social and behavioral need that we had to focus on as well. And I think that’s ongoing. We’re all still figuring that out as we’re in year two of this pandemic and really hoping that the Delta Variant ends soon. >>Doug Sweeney: Did your dissertation research help you at all with the new work up in Madison? How does your study of the wellbeing of students in universities like yours affect the way you do your job day in and day out? >>Dr. Griggs: Yeah. I think that my research, what it’s done for me, my research has really been bigger than the response that we have had here. What the research did was it helped me to understand the significant place that religion, spirituality, and faith holds in the life of every person. Even though we do have people that are atheists, agnostic, and religious but not spiritual, or spiritual but not religious, rather – even though we have all of those people, there is still this foundational element to our being; that’s driven from somewhere. For a lot of people that is religion and spirituality and faith. So, what that’s done for me here in my role is that when we look at a global pandemic there are actual epidemiological things that we have to respond to. There is a virus that’s transmitting and there are all kinds of variants that we need to consider. And there are a lot of protocols. But let’s look at the people and think about what that’s doing to the people. And that’s where the research actually feeds in. Because anything in our environment, similar to what I mentioned earlier – anything in our environment can kind of throw us off kilter. It throws off our balance or it can. But when you have people that really have that religion, spirituality, and faith as the center of who they are, you are able to encourage them in a different way than you can with people that have something else as their center. And so what my research has done for me, specifically, is really helped me to look at people as the whole person. And really see who they are and that allows me to help them progress on through this global pandemic that we all find ourselves in. >>Kristen Padilla: Dr. Griggs, how does your Christian faith impact the work that you do at the university? >>Dr. Griggs: Yeah, honestly, I can say that with all of the science that I know everything I do starts with prayer. Even though science is the foundation of a lot of what we know about this virus and a lot of what we know about the pandemic and a lot of what we know about medicine, I personally find that when we think about the end of life, we don’t think about science. Right? We think of a final destination where we’ll find ourselves and that has spiritual and religious connotations. That’s where we find ourselves. And so even when I look at everything I’m doing today, I want every step and everything I consider that we do as an institution to lend towards people keeping that as a focus. And so I constantly pray that every decision that I’m making, everything that we do as an organization, that the Lord can use that to bring people closer to himself. >>Doug Sweeney: Carol, Kristen and I always like to end these interviews by asking our guests whether the Lord’s been teaching them anything recently in their own devotional lives that might be encouraging for our listeners to hear. And our listeners know by now that this has been a pretty busy year for you and your family. Anything special in your own walk with the Lord, your own devotional life, that might be helpful to tell our listeners? >>Dr. Griggs: Sure, absolutely. So, I think it’s been maybe 18 months, because I think that’s how long we’ve been in the pandemic. There’s been one verse that’s always just rung true for me. And it’s an odd verse. I know it’s an odd verse, but it’s always been there in the back of my mind. And I’ll explain why in a second. But that verse is Acts 1:8, where Jesus tells the disciples, “Go on, you will be my disciples, on to Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” And I think, “you will be my witnesses,” is a better way of saying it. I think that the reason that that verse has rested with me so much is because when Jesus said that what he didn’t say to the disciples was the amount of work that’s going to take. (laughs) Right? To get this on to the end of the earth, my message, and who I am to be witnesses of Jesus, that takes a lot of work. I think for me personally going through this pandemic, managing a global pandemic on a college institution or on a college campus has been a lot of work. And I have to remind myself that there’s a purpose. Yes, there’s an epidemiological purpose, but there’s a spiritual purpose in doing it as well. And every day that I wake up, every day that I come to work, I want to be a witness of Jesus Christ to not only my co-workers but all the students that we serve. So, that verse has really resonated with me in a lot of ways. And I find it a joy as I go through everything I do and there’s a challenge. I always remind myself, Jesus wants me to be a witness. He didn’t say how hard it would be. (laughs) And there are some verses that speak to how hard it would be, when you think about suffering. But that’s what we’re called to do. And so in everything I do, I want to keep the love of Christ and just his spirit, the Holy Spirit. I want to keep that at my core, as my core, so that other people can benefit from that. Not because of who I am, but because of who Christ is. >>Doug Sweeney: Amen. God help us to be faithful to the gospel of our Lord Jesus. Listeners, this has been Carol Griggs, Dr. Carol Griggs, a Beeson alumni, Director of Operations of University Heath Services, at the University of Wisconsin in Madison, Wisconsin. We are glad to have her on the show. Thank you, Carol, for giving us some time, and thank you, listeners, for tuning in. As ever, we love you, we’re praying for you. And we say goodbye, for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.