Beeson Podcast, Episode #545 Reverend Dr. Lionel Young April 20, 2021 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I am recording today’s episode during a special week in the life of Beeson Divinity School. This is World Christianity Focus Week here on campus, which we use every spring to shine a light on the work of God across the globe. Every spring semester we invite a leading expert in world Christianity to inform us about the global Church and inspire us to greater faithfulness and fruitfulness in international and intercultural ministry. This year’s guest is my dear friend, Dr. Lionel Young, a pastor, a specialist in world Christianity and a leader in the field of global theological education. I am excited to share him with you on the podcast today. Missions in the global Church have always been a priority here at Beeson Divinity School. Our global center is the school’s hub for all things missions related. It hosts a lunch club with international students from Beeson and Samford, weekly lunchtime events featuring stories of gospel work in various parts of the world, and two special emphasises. Go Global Week in the fall and World Christianity Focus Week in the spring. We also have a mission certificate program for master of divinity students who feel that God is calling them to intercultural ministry. So, if you or someone you know wants to prepare for Christian ministry overseas, please contact me or even better send a note to our colleague Dr. David Parks, who directs our global center and missions program. Dr. Parks can be reached at daparks@samford.edu or online at the divinity school, BeesonDivinity.com. All right. Normally, as regular listeners know, at this point in the show I turn things over to my co-host, Kristen Padilla, and ask her to introduce our guest. But sadly today our friend Kristen has taken ill. So, we are praying for her and wishing her a speedy recovery. I am on my own to introduce my friend, Lionel Young, to all of you. Let me tell you the Reverend Dr. Lionel Young is Executive Vice President of Global Action and author of “World Christianity and the Unfinished Task: A Very Short Introduction,” which I have read with great admiration and which is hot off the press right now. Dr. Young is our World Christianity Focus Week speaker this week. I don’t know, Lionel, how long we’ve known one another ... 20 years or so? It’s been a great blessing of my life to be a friend of yours for so many years. Welcome to the podcast. >>Dr. Young: Thank you, Doug. It’s good to be with you. Thank you for your friendship and the many ways that you have blessed me and shaped my life. I’m really glad to be with you again today. >>Doug Sweeney: I’m at a distinct advantage here Lionel because I know you pretty well, but not many of our listeners know enough about you. Could you start us off by just telling us a little bit about your faith journey? How did you come to faith in Christ? What was your spiritual journey like up through the time that you got interested in theological things and world Christianity? >>Dr. Young: Yes, well, I was born in Texas City, Texas. I lived most of my life now in the north, but have recently moved back to the state of Texas. I live in Austin, Texas now. My father was a Baptist minister. My great grandfather was a Methodist minister. And I grew up in the fundamentalist tradition, which was actually quite influential in the state of Texas in the 1930s and ‘40s and ‘50s. I’m thankful for my parents’ faith and their love, which sort of tempered some of the extremes in that movement that I grew up in. But it was as a child I came to know Christ and felt my heart strangely warmed as I heard the gospel as a young boy. Then felt called to go into ministry and follow my father’s footsteps. I did break the rules by going off to seminary, which was not ... You weren’t supposed to do that in the particular circles that I was part of. (laughs) I met my wife when I was 15, she was 16. That was before seminary, but then went off to seminary. Then went into pastoral ministry at a very young age, in my early 20’s. And really through the study of, I would say, church history where ... I’m trying to remember that line of the past is a foreign country, they do things differently there. I came to meet Christians from different parts of the world and I became part of what one might call more of a broad minded evangelical community in my 20’s and in my 30’s. So, that’s sort of my journey. I’ve been in pastoral ministry for almost 30 years and now I work in global theological education, and then do some work in the area of world Christianity attached to a small studies center at the University of Cambridge. >>Doug Sweeney: I’m sure we’ll talk about your pastoral ministry later in the interview, but for now and just so our listeners understand, you serve as Executive Vice President of Global Action. Can you tell us what is Global Action? What’s your role at Global Action? How is God using Global Action to edify people around the world these days? >>Dr. Young: Yeah. Of course, loving history, I always start by telling you the history of everything. My wife, when she asks me a question, she says, “Now, give me the two minute version.” So, I’ll do that. Global Action was founded in 1998 by a Swedish evangelical by the name of Lars Dunberg who in the 1980s and ‘90s was the President of the International Bible Society. In fact, he was the president of the International Bible Society during the inclusive language debate that happened ... I’m trying to recall, late ‘80s, early ‘90s, something like that. During Lars’ presidency he was trying to get the Bible out to people all over the world. One of the things that he noticed as he traveled to different parts of the world was they were effectively getting the Bible out, but just putting the Bible into the hands of someone doesn’t turn them into a theologian. It’s kind of like putting a hammer into someone’s hands and thinking they’re going to automatically become a carpenter. Well, it’s possible they could do some damage with that hammer if they don’t have appropriate training. And so Lars had a heart for equipping leaders in the non western world who did not have any access to theological education. So, Global Action works to partner with the global Church to provide theological education for what we call the 90% of those who have no access. And we work in partnership primarily with non western churches, non western theological institutions. We have some one thousand students in our program every single year. They’re basically taking certificate level theological education. Most of them are already in ministry. They are pastors and they are ministry leaders. Most of our faculty members are non western. So, we are partnering with the global church to help make theological education accessible to people who live primarily in the developing world. >>Doug Sweeney: You wrote something recently for the Beeson blog that I thought was very powerful. You talked about how, in your case, learning more about the global church has changed your life forever. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about that? I want this to be a little bit of a teaser for them. I want them to read what you wrote on the blog. But for those who will never read what your wrote on the blog, how has learning about the global Church changed your life? How has it affected your story, your walk with the Lord? >>Dr. Young: Well, I think the first thing that my encounter with the global Church has done is helped me understand that I’m part of something that’s really big. And that really pulled me out of the cul de sac that I grew up in. And I became part of this neighborhood and eventually through the study of Church history realized, “Oh, there are other neighborhoods out there, too. And some of them are really old.” So, I became part of, if you will, this global community. That really enriched my life in significant ways. To realize that other people are reading the text, the same text that I’m reading, and they’re reading it as faithfully as they possibly can, but the application to their lives, in some cases, they cast light on the scriptures that perhaps I had not seen before. I think of this way, imagine reading the scriptures in a dark library. There’s no windows, there are no lights, and you can barely read the text itself. I feel like the study of Church history and meeting Christians from around the world kind of turned the lights on for me. Opened the windows up. And it helped me see the text more clearly. I was always committed to scripture. Always committed to the text. But it helped me see the text more clearly. Whether it’s my friends in Latin America that helped me see the call of scripture to be a good Samaritan to my neighbor in need. Whether it’s my friends in parts of India that could talk about persecution in ways that I really haven’t experienced it. But they call me to follow Christ more faithful in my difficulties. Or my friends in Africa who can speak with such conviction about the idea of community and that we are part of each other. This African word Ubuntu, which means to be part of this larger community. And so I’m just throwing a few examples out of the way I’ve been able to read scripture. I’m still reading the same book. I’m still committed to it, but I’m reading it with more clarity, more light. So, my interaction with my brothers and sisters in Christ has really enriched me in significant ways. I’m sharing only just a few things. >>Doug Sweeney: Sure. And you get into some of these issues as well in a less personal but still very profound way in your new book. I mentioned it before, “World Christianity and the Unfinished Task: A Very Short Introduction.” Can you tell our listeners a little bit about that book? What are you doing in that book? How do you hope God is going to use it down the road? >>Dr. Young: Yes. I mean, one of the things that happened to me was I was invited to teach Church History in Kenya. I had already been teaching Church History at the undergrad level and had studied Church History at Trinity. But then I’m teaching Church History in Africa. And I realized there were things that were happening outside of North America that I wasn’t quite as familiar with, which required me to really, as my doctoral mentor used to say, “mug up.” That means put your mug in a book and start reading. So, that was one of David Bevington’s favorite expressions, “I need you to mug up.” So, I’m reading more broadly about the global Church. So, what I do in this book is sort of introduce readers to what is happening in the global Church. I talk very briefly about how the world has changed during the 20th century. In the year 1900 some 80% of the world’s Christians lived in the North Atlantic West, North America and Europe. And today some 70% of the world’s Christians live in the global south. In the year 1900 almost all the world’s missionaries were sent out from the west to the rest. Today, almost half of the world’s missionaries are being sent out from the non western world. And we’re using the expression that your listeners are probably familiar with. Now it’s everyone taking the gospel out to everyone. We’re going from everywhere to everywhere. From everyone to everyone. So, I do a little bit of a snapshot on what’s happening in Europe in the area of World Christianity. There’s some surprising things. For example, eastern Europe is experiencing a revival right now. That’s been happening since the 1990s. There’s a revival happening among Roma people. Some 10 to 12 million Roma people spread throughout eastern Europe. I realize that when a lot of people think of Europe they might think of empty churches. But that really isn’t a complete picture of what’s happening in Europe. I talk about North America, and I talk about the rapid growth of Christianity in Latin America. The rapid growth of Christianity in Africa, and the growth of Christianity in Asia. So, I give readers just a quick overview of what’s happening in the global Church. Then later on I ask the question: So, what does this mean for the role of the western Church as it relates to mission? >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah, let’s go there for just a minute. Most of our listeners are pastors or very active lay people in churches who care a lot about missions. The older ones have lived through some significant changes in the ways in which we talk about missions over the years. And probably some of the language of world Christianity and global Christianity that’s pretty common in seminaries these days is a teeny bit foreign to some listeners. Can you apply some of the themes you’re working on with us this week and you’re working on in the book? What difference should these realities make for the ways in which church people think about the missions work that they’re involved in from local congregations? >>Dr. Young: Yes, well, one of the trends that we’re seeing today in the study of Church history is a greater focus on world Christianity. So, many of the standard Church history books that are wonderful works devoted a chapter to the history of missions, which really was the history of Christianity everywhere else. So, that is changing now. We’re now looking at instead of just the history of missions, which is still a very important topic, we’re looking now at the history of the Church in Africa, in Asia, in Latin America. And so what we’re learning is that the Church not only is present in all of these places and that there are no closed countries, unless we’re talking about an American going someplace. There are some countries that are closed to Americans. In fact, a lot of countries right now during COVID are. Most of them are. But every country is open to the gospel. Because there are places that non western people can go that I cannot go. So, I think a couple of applications. I would say one is the recognition that this is a wonderful opportunity for mission. If the western Church understands that, to quote a Swahili proverb in English, “If you want to go fast, go alone. But if you want to go far, go together.” We can go further than ever if we go in partnership with the non western Church. I’ll give you an example. So, our organization is partnering with the church in India to equip leaders to go to Bhutan to establish gospel centered house churches. That would be very difficult for most western people to do. We would maybe sit back and go, “There’s no way in the world we can go to Bhutan.” However, today, the Church is growing rapidly in Bhutan and what would be considered a hermit kingdom because the western Church is partnering with the non western Church and working together for the gospel. I think the second thing I would say is that this call to have a greater posture of humility as it relates to our engagement in global mission. It used to be that late 19th century, early 20th century evangelicals sort of rolled up with sleeves and they went out to conquer the world. In fact, we use terms like “mission field,” which has maybe overtures of military themes, like we’ve got to go occupy the fields. Today, we need to think more in terms of, “Let’s work together in humility with our brothers and sisters in Christ and reach people that, as Americans, we would not be able to reach.” So, those would be just maybe a couple of things I would mention. And I could go on and on about that, Doug, but I better pause right there for the next question. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah, well, I’d love to hear just a little bit more about how that works. Maybe how that works at the congregational level? What kind of examples maybe could you give us of some of the humble partnering that American Christians, American churches have engaged in with people in other contexts that might be a good model for some of our listeners to consider from their own congregations? >>Dr. Young: I’ll mention a couple that come to mind immediately. One is developing friendships with peer churches in the non western world. And I want to emphasize the importance of developing friendships with churches that might be peers. So, for example, if you are a really large church you might want to develop a relationship with another really large church, because it changes the dynamics if you’re a 2,000 member church and you’re developing a partnership with a 100 member church in rural Kenya, for example. And there’s some difficulties with that. I’m not saying you can’t do that. But one of the things, in fact, the church I led for many years ... We developed a partnership with a mega church in Nairobi, Kenya. And what we did was ... And this proved to be quite successful. We started with friendship. We developed a relationship. And this church had a vision for planting churches in other parts of Africa and sending missionaries to other parts of Africa, to unreached people groups. And so what we did was we partnered and we provided half of the funding. They provided half of the funding. They provided a church planting team. We got to meet that team. And then we made a three year commitment, because my friend Oscar who was the senior pastor of the church said, “We want to encourage them to be self supporting within three years.” After three years I said, “Oscar, we’d like to support them for one more year.” He goes, “Let me think about it.” And then he said, “Okay, one more year.” And that worked out beautifully. We were able to plant several different churches. Western church, non western church, sending out a team of church planters. That would be one of many strategies that I might suggest. Another example might be working with a non western church to equip leaders, which is one of the greatest needs and that’s what our organization, that’s what we do. And this was what operation world is saying, the non western church is saying this is their greatest need. So, it can be a western pastor who loves theological education, who wants to be part of that and serve somewhere in the non western world. Go give some time away and serve. Or a church that wants to send their pastor to do that. Or support a non western pastor so that he can receive his education. So, those would be a couple of examples of many that I could give. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah, and in the example you gave from your own church, which I know is a pretty big church that partnered with the church led by this man, Oscar, in Kenya – Did you wind up feeling like the Lord was really using your American church’s contribution to the partnership in a significant way? Or would this man, Oscar, have said, “You know, Lionel, you really did help us. We’re not as dependent on you as we would have been maybe a long time ago. But we’re really glad for the partnership and we think we’re able to do something special in terms of ministry here, maybe more effectively than we would have done it without your help?” >>Dr. Lionel: Yes. Well, Dana Robert has used the term “friendship” to talk about partnership. I like that, that word picture. And it’s a biblical one as well. In friendships there is ... Friendships are mutually beneficial. It’s not all give and not all take. You’re blessing each other. And so one of the things that Oscar and I talked about at the outset was this partnership has to be mutually beneficial. We have to bless each other in this friendship and in this partnership. We discovered that that happened on so many levels. Certainly we were able to bless with some financial resources. But that’s not all the African Church wants. They don’t want to just be recipients of our finances. We were able to bless with friendship and encouragement. We were blessed by the friendship and by the encouragement. And ultimately we saw several churches planted and the Kingdom of God grow and I like to call that a win-win-win. You know? It was a win for us. It was a win for Nairobi Chapel. It was a win for the Kingdom of God. And so I do think that partnerships and, again to use Dana Roberts’ word, “friendships” should be mutually beneficial. Usually they take time to develop those kinds of friendships. >>Doug Sweeney: You’ve already told our listeners, Lionel, that you’re here for World Christianity Focus Week. You preached a wonderful sermon in chapel today. I think you’re going to be giving a lecture tomorrow, appearing at a few classes. Could you give our off campus listeners just a taste for the kinds of things that you’re teaching our students and saying to your community this week? >>Dr. Young: First, just a brief word about my message this morning from Acts 2. I wanted to provide something in there for the soul as well as the mind. And I think the two are very much related. So, I wanted to say that world Christianity has been around since the first century. That this is the message primarily of Acts 2 that the Holy Spirit translated the message into all the languages of the earth. That was a pretty significant statement about the gospel itself. That this good news is for everyone. And also a significant statement, as Peter points out later on in his sermon where he’s expositing Joel the prophet, is a statement about those who are taking the gospel out. That the Spirit of God has been poured out on men and women, rich and poor, young and old. So, everyone is now taking the gospel out in this very difficult world and uncertain times. Everyone is taking the gospel out to everyone. I think one of the things I wanted to accomplish in that was a little bit of a push back on language that occasionally is used, and I’ve even slipped up and used it at times, about the coming of global Christianity. I know what is meant by the title of that work, and I don’t think those who are using those expressions are saying Christianity is just now becoming a global religion. But I wanted to say that let’s go back to our roots, our identity, and this new era of world Christianity is really helping us re-connect with our past. That the God who made all people sent his son to die for all of us and the Spirit of God translated the message into all the languages of the earth and the Spirit has been placed upon men and women, young and old, rich and poor to take that message out. So, that was the theme, really, of the Acts 2 narrative this morning. >>Doug Sweeney: And what about tomorrow’s lecture? What are you going to tell the students? >>Dr. Young: Yes. I’m going to give kind of an overview of some of the things that I’ve talked about in my book on World Christianity and the Unfinished Task. The title, and one of the things I learned from you, Doug, as a student, is always pay attention to titles. So, I’ve enjoyed analyzing title over the course of my studies. So, I’m talking about the fact that we live in a new era of world Christianity, where most of the world’s Christians now live in the non western world. But that raises the question of the unfinished task, which is borrowing from the missions thinker, Stephen Neil, who wrote a classic book on Christian mission. It’s still being used today. But he also wrote a book titled, “The Unfinished Task.” And so what I’m doing is connecting those two and I’m saying, “Okay, since most of the world’s Christians now live in the non western world, what is our role in the western world as it relates to the unfinished task?” I’m arguing very much for global mission and for continuing in global mission. But what I’m saying is the world has changed. The mission has not. But we perhaps need to re-think some of our strategies in the context of new developments. So, I’m having conversations with the students about this. Not to kind of ruin the end of the book, but one of the things that I find that ... And I’m an American, but I spent a lot of time studying in the UK and the non western world doing research ... One of the things I found that as Americans we’re very quick at coming up with strategies, putting them in nice packages, putting nice titles on them, and then we take those strategies over to the non western world and say, “Hey, use this. Isn’t this cool?” So, what I’m suggesting in this book is to take a step back and let’s talk about a new philosophy. And that is let’s work together. Let’s have conversations together. Let’s develop friendships. And then in the course of that conversation we can talk about what’s the most effective strategy for Bhutan? What’s the most effective strategies for Zimbabwe? Or Egypt? Or Lebanon? Or Iraq or Iran? So, to take a step back and say, “Let’s talk together about what is the best strategy for that particular part of the world?” >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. Very wise words. I look forward to hearing more about that later this week. Dr. Young, we always end these interviews by asking our guests what the Lord has been teaching them recently? And my goodness this is a very interesting time to ask someone like you what the Lord has been teaching you recently. Lots of our recent guests have been talking about what they’ve learned amidst the COVID epidemic. What they’ve learned in the midst of all the social and racial and political turmoil of our day. I imagine your style has been cramped pretty significantly by COVID. And maybe that’s affected the way you’ve been thinking and reading scripture and praying. I don’t want to put words in your mouth. I’m just setting you up for this question. Anything the Lord’s been teaching you recently that we might conclude with and offer to our guests by way of edification? >>Dr. Young: I could mention several things. I think to do so within the context of COVID is an appropriate way in which I’ve been thinking about my own role in the global Church. We’re a mission organization, so we’re part theological education part mission. But the two are working together. You can look at the world’s needs and become quickly overwhelmed by the needs that are out there in the world. You can, as I think I use the turn of phrase, “look at the mission and take the world on your shoulders.” One of the things that we’ve had to do, our organization has had to do, in the midst of COVID is rely more heavily on non western leaders to carry out the work that we do. Guess what? The gospel’s not on lockdown. (laughs) That is good news for a couple of reasons. One, is God is working in powerful ways around the world. But two, it could take some pressure off of us to think, “I’ve got to fix everything.” And I’m a person that has a strong sense of social justice. So, when I see things that are not right I want to fix them. I’m driven by that. Inequality in the world just really drives me and really as a person. So, that can keep you up at night in profound ways. But just this reminder that the Spirit of God is working in this world. He’s helping me in my difficulties, in my failures, my shortcomings, my struggles, the Spirit of God is helping me. He’s working in this world. The weight of the world is not on my shoulders. It’s ultimately on the shoulders of a God who loves me, who gave his son for me, who sent his Spirit to call me to be part of his community. And that nothing, absolutely nothing, not life or death, not COVID can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus. I think that this recognition that ultimately the Spirit of God is at work in this world and the weight of the world is not on my shoulders, that God is the one. It is the mission of God. First, before it’s the mission of the Church, it’s the missio dei before it is the missio ecclesia. I need to recognize that and remind myself of that again and again and again. >>Doug Sweeney: Amen and hallelujah! Listeners, you have been hearing the Reverend Dr. Lionel Young, Executive Vice President of Global Action and the author of a brand new great book entitled, “World Christianity and the Unfinished Task: A Very Short Introduction.” He is here with us all week giving our World Christianity lectures. We really are glad for his time this week and for his time on this podcast. Listeners, please continue to pray for us as we serve our students in the midst of COVID. I’m seeing light at the end of the tunnel. But we need your prayers in an ongoing way. We love you and we thank you for tuning in. And we say goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.