Beeson Podcast, Episode #540 Dr. Frank Thielman March 16, 2021 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney, here with my cohost, Kristen Padilla. And today we have one of our most senior faculty members back on the show to share about a brand new book he’s published, one that my wife Wilma and I have been reading to each other with deep gratitude to God. Before we introduce todays guest, let me invite you to join us next week for our annual Biblical Studies Lectures. We’ll welcome Dr. Christopher Sights, senior research professor at Wycliffe College, of the University of Toronto, to give this year’s lectures. And they will take place March 23 through March 25 at 11AM. Please join us online at beesondivinity.com/live. Kristen, today’s guest also happens to be an expert in biblical studies. Would you please introduce him to our audience? >>Kristen Padilla: I will. Welcome everyone. Today on the show we have Dr. Frank Thielman with us. He is Presbyterian Chair of Divinity at Beeson, where he has taught New Testament and Greek courses since 1989. Dr. Thielman is married to Abby. They have three children, two sons-in-law, one daughter-in-law, and one grandson. So, welcome Dr. Thielman back to the Beeson podcast. >>Dr. Thielman: Thank you. It’s really good to be here. >>Kristen Padilla: Most of our listeners know who you are, but for those who may not be as familiar with you or your work, I wonder if you could give us a brief introduction, more than what I gave in the bio about your background? >>Dr. Thielman: Sure. I would be happy to. Well, Abby and I have been here at Beeson and in Birmingham since 1989, so I guess that’s about 31, 32 years. We’ve been here a long time. But Abby is from just south of Boston, so she grew up in Massachusetts in a little town called Hingham. And I grew up in western North Carolina, in the mountains there, in a little town called Montreat. So, we’re both from small towns. Birmingham is a bigger town. And we moved here back in 1989, only a few months after Beeson Divinity School started. Dr. George was a wonderful dean and colleague for many years. We’re really enjoying our friendship with the Sweeney’s and are so glad that Dr. Sweeney is here with us as dean. And I’ve just been teaching New Testament and Greek for the last three decades here and have enjoyed it very much. I’ve taught some wonderful students, including Kristen, a long time ago. And I have some wonderful colleagues here and it’s just been a great place to be. We do have three children. They are too far away from us for our liking. We’ve got children in Massachusetts, and in Michigan, and in Texas. So, they’re scattered all about. But Birmingham was a good place to raise them and we’re grateful that they all like coming back here. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, Dr. Thielman, we sure are glad that you have stuck around Beeson for these decades. Our listeners probably don’t need me to tell them that you’re one of our most popular professors and just a dear friend of mine already. The reason Kristen and I invited you to be on the show today is because you have another new book that we’re excited about called The New Creation and the Storyline of Scripture. It’s part of a series of books at Crossway called Short Studies in Biblical Theology. We have a number of questions we want to ask you about this topic, but could we begin by asking you, what’s this book about, basically? And how does this fit in this series at Crossway? >>Dr. Thielman: Crossway asked me to do this book several years ago, when they were planning this new series of small biblical theological studies. Their idea was to have books that were primarily for lay people and busy clergy, who might not have time to read large scholarly monographs on these theological topics. But who might really benefit from spiritually, and grow in their knowledge of scripture from reading about various important theological topics, and how we can trace their development through the scriptures. And so, it’s a series designed to be read, rather each volume, to be read rather quickly, and to give an overview of a theological topic and the way it’s developed throughout the Bible. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the Oxford University Press series of very short introductions to different topics. I think this series is a lot like that little series. It’s just on biblical theology and topics in biblical theology. So, basic orientation to biblical theological topics. >>Kristen Padilla: Dr. Thielman, you write in the preface of your book. I’m quoting you, my hope for this short book is that it serves as a basic introduction to the plot line of the Christian scriptures. So, why did you choose to focus on the new creation, by way of introducing the message of scripture? And how does the new creation summarize the plotline of scripture? >>Dr. Thielman: Well, when Crossway asked me to contribute to this series, I was writing on Galatians. And Galatians 6:15 is one of the two places in scripture where the phrase, the new creation, is actually used. And it occurred to me that this is a reasonable summary of where the scriptures start and where they end. They start in Genesis with the creation and then the idea of a new creation implies that something happened to the original creation that required its renewal. And the scriptures tell the story of how God in His mercy and love embraced, didn’t abandon his fallen creation to their falleness and to the rebellion against him. But continued to reach out to his creation and restore and renew it. And then finally in the last book of the Bible, you have a description of what its ultimate and final renewal will look like. So, I thought it might be a helpful way for somebody who was just sitting down, thinking about sitting down, and reading the Bible cover to cover, to orient themselves to the Bible. You know, I think we all- when we sit down to read a long book, especially a long book that was written a long time ago, most of us need a little bit of an introduction to it and some orientation to it. So, my hope was that this book might function especially for people who might be newer Christians or people just beginning to really study the Bible seriously as a way to grow in their faith, to orient themselves to the basic storyline of the Bible. So, that’s kind of how I conceived of the project. >>Doug Sweeney: I’m here to testify, you do that very well, Frank, as one of your readers, and my wife Wilma would say the same. I’m wondering if we could give our listeners just a little bit more detail about how the chapters in the book help you take us through the plotline of scripture. You’ve got a chapter on creation, on the fall, on redemption, on new creation, and on end times slash restoration. Could you take just a few minutes and walk us through the plotline of scripture using those five chapter headings as a way to do it? >>Dr. Thielman: Sure. I’d be happy to. The first chapter starts in Genesis, and is really just a sort of retelling in some ways of this story of Genesis one to four, a description of what Genesis one through four is about. And it talks about how God’s creation is entirely good and it examines the way Genesis describes creation, the poetry there, the use of the number seven, and just how the emphasis is on how entirely good, and entirely perfect and peaceful, the original creation of God was. And then I move- after I move out of Genesis one to four, in the next chapter I talk a bit about Abraham and God’s calling of Abraham to become the father of a new family through whom he was going to work for the redemption of his creation. And then I move into how the scriptures describe the giving of the Mosaic Law. That the Mosaic Law was a gift from God, revealing to people how they should live on the other side of Adam’s rebellion against God. And yet, at the same time, the Mosaic Law anticipates the failure of Israel to live according to its precepts. So, the Mosaic Law was given to Israel as a way to aid Israel in its vocation to be a Kingdom of priests and a holy nation. So, they were to demonstrate the character of God to the rest of the world. And they were to do that by living according to God’s commands in the law, but they failed to do that. And the law itself recognizes that that failure really is inevitable given the sinful and rebellious tendencies of humanity. So, that chapter then moves into the book of Isaiah and talks about Isaiah at length, and how Isaiah promises a time of restoration. When God would restore not only his people who have disobeyed his law, his people Israel, but also all of creation who since Adam have also been rebellious against him. And I need to credit my colleague, Paul House, who has a wonderful commentary on Isaiah that I used extensively as I studied Isaiah for that part of the book. And if you’re reading it carefully you’ll notice lots of footnotes to Dr. House’s commentary on Isaiah in that section. And then after that chapter, chapter three, really focuses on Mathew’s gospel. And how Mathew’s gospel in the New Testament, in our cannon, opens with a description of the great Davidic King Jesus, who’s born and then eventually suffers, like Isaiah’s suffering servant in Isaiah 52 and 53, and dies as a ransom for many in order to restore God’s people, so that they now can complete their vocation of being a kingdom of priests and a holy nation that bears witness of the character of God to the rest of the world. Then the fourth chapter moves basically into the early church and into the description of the early church in the book of Acts. And how the early church really carries forward Jesus’s mission of demonstrating what the new creation and God’s restoration of creation is all about. You know, everywhere Jesus goes in Mathew’s gospel, demons flee, people are healed of their diseases, sins are forgiven. Jesus issues the Sermon on the Mount, which is a code of ethics for his people that emphasizes kindness and interior transformation and non-retaliation. And so, Jesus in Mathew’s gospel showed us a picture what the new creation would be like. And then the early church begins to spread that message and establish communities that live in the way that Jesus wanted the church to live. And the church then is to be a community of the new creation. So, after dealing with the early chapters of the book of Acts, I move into the two letters of Paul that actually use the phrase, the new creation. His letter to the Galatians and his second letter to the Corinthians. So, Galatians 6:15 and Second Corinthians 5:17 are the only places in scripture that the phrase new creation is actually used. So, I talk a bit about those letters in this chapter four. And then I end chapter four with a description of Paul’s argument in Ephesians about how the church should live in a way that shows the people within it are being recreated according to the image of Jesus. So, we’re growing up into the maturity of what Jesus looks like. I think Paul can see the Jesus as the new Adam. And so, those of us who belong to the church are being transformed by the power of the holy spirit to live in these new creation ways, that are the ways created human beings to live. And then finally in the last chapter, I talk a bit about the book of revelation and the heavens and the new earth and what the future is going to look like. So, we move from creation to the rebellion of God’s creation against him to God’s just immediate efforts in his mercy to bring that creation back to what he created it to be. And then to the founding of the church as a community of the new creation, showing the world God’s character and what the new creation should look like. And then finally the time when that new creation will happen. And basically the church will be completely sanctified and God’s creation and his church will merge, I guess is the way to put it, into one society, and one newly restored universe. >>Kristen Padilla: We are recording this conversation on Wednesday afternoon. And for our listeners who don’t know this, Dr. Thielman just got out of a New Testament theology course that he is teaching on Wednesdays and Fridays. And so, I would imagine, Dr. Thielman, that as you’re teaching New Testament theology that this framework, this plotline, the new creation is at the forefront of your mind. How has this topic, your book maybe even more concretely, interacting with your class and what you’re doing in New Testament theology, and what are you hoping that your students here at Beeson will take away as they consider the theology of the New Testament, in particular, as it relates to your book? >>Dr. Thielman: Well, my hope is that the book, which I do use in my class, so the students have read the book. And of course, this is the first year I’ve used it, because it’s just come out. But my hope is that the book served as a basic orientation to my New Testament theology students about where we are in salvation history when we open the first page of the New Testament. So, my hope is that it would orient students to the necessary biblical and theological background really for understanding the New Testament. And would particularly catch them up on how the New Testament is deeply indebted to Old Testament for its own theological themes and understanding those clearly. So, I’ve been using it in class as kind of a general orientation, theological orientation, to the basic themes of scripture. Who Jesus is, and why his coming at that particular time that he came, fits right in with the plot line of the Old Testament. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. Thielman, I imagine that you’re like me in that when you’re writing a book, you’re thinking and praying about the people to whom you’re writing it. And you’re asking the Lord to guide you as you write, so that the work that you put into the book will be work that’s well spent, and work that’s done in accordance with his will and his plan for the scholarship that you’re engaging in. What kinds of things were you praying about and thinking about when you were writing this book? And in so far as you were asking the Lord to use it in the lives of your readers, what kind of impact were you hoping for? >>Dr. Thielman: This book, I think, is a product of both where I was personally when I wrote it, some things I was going through personally on one hand. And what I wanted to accomplish for my readers on the other hand. And let me just explain that a little bit. So, I wrote this book during a summer that my family and I spent out in Colorado with my son and his wife and our little grandson, whose name very aptly is Isaiah. And Isaiah was very, very sick that summer, and was just about to turn two. He was just kind of in the midst of the gravest part of his illness. He had spent a lot of time in the hospital. And through the generosity of some friends of ours, we were able to spend six weeks out in Colorado with my son and his wife and little Isaiah, helping them. And when we weren’t with them, I was working on this book. And so, I was constantly thinking of just the travails of human illness and the effects of the fall, and the great sorrow and grief that comes from the way the world currently is. That it’s- the world has gone awry in its rebellion against God. And as a result of that rebellion, the world is a much less joyful place than God created it to be at the beginning. And so, that’s where I was personally. So, writing this book was really helpful to me spiritually, because it took me deep into what the scriptures have to say about the sorrow that we see all around us in this world. It was encouraging to me to see these scriptures just affirming that yes, that sorrow is there, and it is really real. And it made me understand that God thoroughly understands, better than we understand it ourselves, the pain that we’re going through. Scripture is not aloof from our pain, because God is not aloof from our pain. And at the same time, just the massive, gracious, and merciful hope that the scriptures give to us, because it reveals to us that our creator is this loving, compassionate tender God. In Mark’s gospel, when Jesus heals the daughter of Jairus, the synagogue ruler, he reaches down and takes her hand. And speaks to her in Aramaic, talitha cumi, my little girl, arise. And just the compassion of Jesus there for this sick child is so moving. And realizing that this is the same Jesus who created this child, who created the wind and the waves that Jesus stills in Mark chapter four. He’s the creator. Jesus is showing us who Yahweh is and he’s the person that touches the hand of the sick child and then in chapter 10 when Jesus has the little children gathered around him the Greek word that Mark uses is, he takes them in his arms, he gathers them in his arms, and sets them basically on his lap. And it’s an image that all of us, I think, who are adults and spend any time around children can identify with. And this is the God that created us and who continues to reach out to us and love us. And who loved us well in Christ Jesus and continues to love us well in the power of the Holy Spirit in the presence of the church. And so, all of those things are going through my mind as I wrote this book. And at the same time, I had in mind the readers of this book, who I was hoping mainly would be Christians who wanted to get to know God better through knowing his word better, but who might find his word hard to read, and difficult to orient themselves to. I sometimes get the question from people, well, where do I start reading the scripture? How do I start reading it? Because they found it difficult just to start at the beginning and read straight through. You know, everybody, I think, kind of gets bogged down a little bit in the temple furniture passages in the book of Exodus, when we try to do that. So my hope is just that this book will help people know the God of the Bible in all of His identity with our suffering, and compassion for us. And in His saving power that’s revealed to us in the scriptures will help people know that’s who are God is. That’s who He is. And that’s how the scriptures reveal Him to us. So, those two things kind of came together that summer. And this book was the result of those. Both the personal struggles and the desire to help other people know the scriptures better and benefit from it the way I had done. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, we highly recommend your book to our listeners. It comes at a time when we have all experienced some sort of suffering connected to the COVID-19 pandemic. And so, your book, I think, reminds us of the hope of the gospel, the hope of Jesus Christ and the new creation that is coming. So, we encourage you to get a copy from Amazon or Crossway or wherever you buy your books. And we thank you for writing this book, Dr. Thielman. >>Dr. Thielman: Thanks, Kristen. >>Kristen Padilla: I know you are always working on other projects. So, I wonder if you can just let us know, what are you working on that we can look forward to, perhaps having you back on the podcast again another day? >>Dr. Thielman: Well, thanks Kristen. Right now I’m working on kind of a long-term project. I don’t think it will be done anytime soon. But it’s a book about Paul. It’s a historical biography of the apostle Paul and it just starts with his earliest days as can know anything about them. And it traces his career, paying special attention to the culture in which he lived and wrote. And to his travels all over the eastern Mediterranean world. And also talk some about his letters, although it’s not designed to be a kind of theology of Paul. It’s more intended to be a life of Paul. And again, the desire here is, the hope is, that this will provide a helpful introduction and preface to reading both the book of Acts, which is the canonical preface to Paul’s letter, and then the letters of Paul themselves. So, there are other good books out there like this. But my hope is this will provide some contribution to helping people understanding Paul better. >>Doug Sweeney: Right. You know well that we try to end these podcast episodes by asking our guest what the Lord has been teaching them recently. Anything that God’s been doing in your life or teaching you in recent days, recent weeks that might be a word of encouragement to our listeners as we conclude? >>Dr. Thielman: Well, thanks, Doug. I really appreciate you asking. I have been reading the book of Proverbs lately in my private devotions. And I’ve just found them so helpful. I try to read them from time to time to remind myself of the wisdom that’s there. I think we live in very- it’s not news to anyone that we’re living in very difficult and somewhat confusing times. Where there’s all kinds of information, often contradictory, in form, that is competing for our attention and trying to win us over to its particular side. And so, the wisdom of Proverbs has just been really helpful to me to just remind myself of how the Bible wants us to live and to walk in wisdom, which begins with the fear of the Lord. Because I think the Lord- I just finished, actually, going through Proverbs. And I think the Lord spoke to me and hopefully taught me something through this most recent reading of Proverbs. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s wonderful. Listeners you have been listening to Dr. Frank Thielman, Presbyterian Chair of Divinity here at Beeson. He has taught at Beeson almost as long as Beeson has been around, since the year 1989. He is a veteran member of our faculty, a dear friend, a godly role model to so many of us. Thank you, Dr. Thielman for being with us. And thank you, dear listeners, for tuning in. We love you and say good bye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.