Beeson Podcast, Episode 524 Dr. Timothy George, Dr. Robert Smith Nov. 24, 2020 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I am Doug Sweeney here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. This week we conclude our three part series featuring Beeson faculty colleagues whose friendships with each other have enriched their teaching, their writing, and their service to the church. We’re asking these pairs to tell us about their friendships and the ways in which their friendships enrich their lives personally and professionally. The faculty pair we’re with today have been friends for more than 20 years. We are looking forward to gaining an inside look into their friendship and their collegiality with each other. So, Kristen, who are these faculty friends? >>Kristen Padilla: Welcome everyone to the Beeson Podcast. Our guests today really don’t need much of an introduction. We have with us Dr. Timothy George who was the long time host of the Beeson Podcast, founding Dean of Beeson Divinity School, and now serves as Distinguished Professor of Divinity here. Then we have Robert Smith, Jr. Dr. Smith, you’ve heard him on the podcast many times as well. He is the Charles T. Carter Baptist Chair of Divinity at Beeson where he teaches Christian preaching. Welcome Dr. George and Dr. Smith to the Beeson Podcast. We’re so glad you’re here. >>Timothy George: Thank you, Kristen. >>Kristen Padilla: We want to begin just with a simple question. How did you two become friends? Take us all the way back to the beginning of your friendship and give us an inside look, if you will. >>Timothy George: Maybe I’ll start and I’ll say that I had heard of Robert Smith, Jr. because we were both at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville during some of the same years. But he was never in my classes, though he could have been. I probably saw him in the hall and maybe even heard him speak in chapel one time. I can’t quite remember. But I became acquainted with him and got to know him at a deep friendship level and a colleague level through one of our great mutual friends, Dr. James Earl Massey. We needed to find somebody to teach preaching at Beeson. And so I called Dr. Massey as I was want to do on many occasions and said, “Is there anybody you could recommend to come and teach preaching at Beeson?” As Dr. Massey was want to do when you ask him a question, he didn’t answer immediately. There was a long pause. As though his mind was thinking and the wheels were turning. Then after a long pause he said, “Dr. George, there is one person. If you could win him he would do a fabulous job. His name is Robert Smith, Jr.” So, that was my introduction to Robert Smith. It was the recommendation of James Earl Massey that I called Dr. Smith and talked with him about our opening in preaching, which I did, thanks be to God and to the glory of God. >>Robert Smith: I’m kind of like Job who said in Job 42 and 5, “I’ve heard of you,” speaking of God, of course, “with my ears, but my eyes have seen you.” [inaudible 00:03:47] face to face. I’d heard of Dr. George. We were at Southern Seminary, you’re right, but providentially the time was not right. So, I never really was in his presence aside from probably walking down the halls. He was born in Chattanooga, Tennessee. I was born in Knoxville, Tennessee. A hundred miles apart. But it wasn’t time. I’d read his Theology of the Reformers. And included many of his theological citations in my dissertation on the Helmut Thielicke. Though I had read about the author I had not really met the author. It was not time. But I got that call one January, 1997, from his administrative assistant. I think her name was Beth. I think that’s right. And she called me, put Dr. George on the phone, and he told me why he had called. I was not arrogant. I was just satisfied where I was. God was blessing me at Southern Seminary. I loved it. I love it now. And I politely told him, “No, I was not interested.” Well, like the unfortunate widow he had Beth to call me again. The same answer. She called me again. I talked to my wife, Wanda, she said, “The Lord may be up to something.” I said to her, “I don’t want the Lord to be up to anything” But he kept calling and then finally I sent a resume to him. He would keep it confidentially and that was wonderful. We came down. I came down, first, and my wife would come later. It’s just interesting to me that the thing that interested me probably as much as anything was that he said, “This would be the place where we could participate in a stewardship of geography.” Birmingham was the place. Two Tennesseans. A white man and a black man showing Christo-conciliation. Conciliation in Christ. That’s the only way it would work. It’s in Christ. The church leads the way. I’ll never forget that day, the last trip I took before I would call him back the following Tuesday. He took me to eat at the Club. THE Club. He sent me a picture later on and showed me the sign. The sign said, “Robert Smith Drive.” Sent that to me as a sign (laughs) that the Lord was calling me to this place. It’s true. He was. And we have had a friendship that I value with my life. I love this man as much as I love my own soul. It’s something God has done. We have not orchestrated it. But God had divinely choreographed it. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, to those of us who are part of the Beeson family, your friendship is legendary already. But just in case we have some listeners who don’t know a lot about the two of you yet and what you’ve worked on together over the years, would you tell us what kinds of projects have you done together over the years? What difference have they made in your lives? Maybe Dr. Smith we can start with you this time. >>Robert Smith: Well, I am the precursor, I must decrease, he must increase. So, I’ll start first. He invited me to participate in a project, A Mighty Long Journey which incorporated with racial reconciliation sermons. Black preachers and white preachers. Because that’s his heart, it’s my heart. It’s one of the six strategic initiatives of Beeson Divinity School racial reconciliation. It just happens to be God’s heart. So that in the Eschaton people from every nation, tribe, kindred, and town will be there. So, therefore, the Church is a Kodak moment of the future state of eternity. We worked on that. We taught a class together, Dean Sweeney. The class was on Reformation Theology and the African American Tradition, in which the reformers were presented and I talked about ... well, of course, obviously he talked about the five solas. I talked about the three motifs of the African American experience. Namely, survival, elevation, and liberation. We saw a great deal of integration there, particularly when it came to sola scriptura, sola fida, that kind of thing. So, those are the kind of projects that we worked on. There are other projects that we worked on that are oral projects. We have poured into each other’s souls at night, different times of the day ... there’s never a time I cannot call him. I promised him that our professional relationship and our personal relationship would never collide. He would always be Dr. Timothy George, my Dean, and then I would always his faculty member. Then once that was taken care of then our personal relationship would be secondary. That was made nearly 20 years ago. It’s still true now, in terms of that we’re colleagues now. It’s kind of strange that he has his office next to mine. I’m honored by that. My office has never been the same since you moved there, Dean George. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, Dr. George, anything you want to add to this question about just what kinds of things have the two of you done together over the years and what difference have they made to you? >>Timothy George: Dr. Smith mentioned the book that we edited together, A Mighty Long Journey. The origin of that book was a trip we took. We would often, I hope we will still be able to do this in the future going forward, we would make little pilgrimages together. Often these were tied to a visit to my hometown of Chattanooga, Tennessee. It’s not too far from Birmingham. We would travel up together to pray together, to have a little spiritual retreat together, often to meet with Beeson alumni and things like that. On one particular trip, I think it was the summertime, Dr. Smith. >>Robert Smith: It was. >>Timothy George: We got up early in the morning, like maybe five A.M. or something like that, and took a walk. A walk from our hotel, out across the Tennessee River. Not walking on water, but walking across a bridge over water, a bridge over troubled water. Because the Tennessee River connects Knoxville, where Robert Smith was born, and Chattanooga, where I was born. Six months apart. I was born in January, he was born in May. And we walked across that Walnut Street Bridge, which today is a pedestrian bridge, a very popular place for tourists and others to go. It was an important event that took place there in the early, early 20th century. But long before either of us were born. Where an African American man was lynched from that bridge. His name was Ed Johnson. Today, if you visit that bridge, this has been added since our first walk across it, there’s a little memorial plaque recalling that event. That horrible, tragic event. One of many, many thousands that took place across our country and especially in the southland in those days. And it was walking across that bridge ... I don’t recall, Dr. Smith, that we said very much that morning. We just walked together. We maybe prayed together a little bit. But in our spirits there was a sense that God was doing something very spectacular and wonderful in bringing us together to that place, to that bridge, on that morning, in that situation. And the book, A Mighty Long Journey, kind of grew out of that experience. One more thing. We would go to Chattanooga and in those days we would often visit a particular person. Someone who was very, very special to me. He was my boyhood pastor. Now, he was way up in his 90s at that time, though he was still preaching the gospel strong. But his name was Sam D. Sharp. Sam D. Sharp had never been to anybody’s seminary. He was very intelligent, but not book-learned in some ways, but he loved the Lord and he loved Robert Smith. And we would go by every time we would have a chance to visit with Brother Sam. Dr. Smith had a mentor in his life, whom I never met in this world, I hope to meet him in Heaven one day, named E. L. Alexander. In my mind Sam D. Sharp and E. L. Alexander are sitting together in the glory land with their feet dangling in the river of life thinking about these two little preacher fellas that they encouraged along the way, Robert Smith and Timothy George. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, anyone who has spent time with both of you, and I’m speaking from personal experience having been your student and also having worked with both of you for a number of years, but anyone who knows both of you, I think, can see the imprint that each of you have had on one another. So, I’m interested to know, from your perspective, how has the other person’s scholarship, preaching, perhaps ministry strengthened your own? And in what ways do you bring what you’re learning from one another into the classroom or into the pulpit? >>Robert Smith: Let me start off by saying that I am indebted to Dr. Timothy George because of his consummate mind. Donald Bailey, a Scottish preacher that I recall, said, “Theology exists in order to make preaching as hard as it needs to be.” That’s Dean George. He has provided the theological fiber and muscle and demand and expectation that’s been rigorous enough for me to have to work with and to be worked upon, actually, so that I could preach theologically with a sense of knowing that 20 centuries of Church history was standing behind my proclamations. Very important for me to be able to synthesize and bring together 20 centuries of Church history so that tradition, yes, was important, intellect, yes, was important. I’m using the Wesleyan quadrilateral, the so-called ... Experience was important, yes. But scripture, that was the main thing. And so with Dean George being an historical theologian, it stretched me because in the final analysis what was more important than anything else was is it true about God? Is it true about scripture? And so that was huge. Another thing that helped me in terms of our marrying theology and preaching together was a comment that ... Dr. George knows this individual ... Dr. James Cox, who was [inaudible 00:15:10] Southern Seminary and was the supervisor for my dissertation. Dr. Cox says that there are various iron rods that hold the concrete of preaching together. The iron rods, the theological rods that you may not see, like a highway. Steel in the cement, the concrete over which the cars may pass over. You appreciate the foundation that is the visible the concrete, but understand that if there were no steel rods imbedded in it, it wouldn’t last. Dean George has given my steel theological rods that has helped to hold the concrete of my proclamation together for which I am very, very grateful. So, ultimately without Dean George, in so many ways, there is no Robert Smith. And I owe that to him. God has used him to strengthen whatever preaching that I try to do. >>Kristen Padilla: Dr. George, how would you answer that question? >>Timothy George: Dr. Smith has referred to his doctoral dissertation, which he did under James Cox, on the Christological Presuppositions of [inaudible 00:16:39]’s Preaching. And that dissertation is a model of kind of the scholarly engagement that brings together passion, on the one hand, and eloquence on the other, just like his preaching does. I would say if there’s one thing that I have been influenced by Robert Smith, in particular, it is the way in which he treats people and takes people in a deeply personal way. The Christian faith is personal because we are Trinitarian; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One God who has forever known himself in these three persons. So, we take persons seriously. Robert Smith does this with his students. Sometimes I’ll be at Beeson working late at night and everybody’s gone, I don’t think anybody is there. I get ready to leave and I look up to the third floor and there is the light in Robert Smith’s office. He’s meeting with some student. He’s going over their assignment. He’s talking with them. Sometimes praying with them. Sometimes I see him put his arms around a student’s shoulder and pray with them. He has that kind of mentoring role. That’s influenced me, too. Preaching and theology is not simply about ideas, not even beautiful eloquent words strung together in a nice way, but it is the communication of the gospel soul to soul, heart to heart, face to face, person to person. And as well as anybody I have ever known in my life in ministry, Robert Smith models that. And that’s why I think we would all agree you wouldn’t get a lot of debate that Robert Smith is really the pastor of Beeson Divinity School. And he’s modeled that with the students, but also with colleagues. I have a long way to go, but I have come some way by being close to him and catching some of that spirit myself. >>Doug Sweeney: Kristen asked the two of you about the importance of your friendship for your professional lives, your preaching, your teacher, your scholarship. I wonder if I could ask you about the significance of your friendship for your personal lives and your walk with the Lord? Dean George, I don’t need to tell you as the Founder of this school that community has always been at the core of our mission here at Beeson. We do life together in community, forming friendships with each other for the sake of helping each other get to know the Lord better, for sake of helping one another grow in Christian discipleship. Any word that you have for our listeners about the importance of your friendship with Dr. Robert Smith, in particular, for your own development as a follower of Jesus? >>Timothy George: You know, sometimes we can give the impression that the Christian life is a dower matter, a somber and serious matter. Of course there is an ultimate eternal seriousness about it. But it’s also a joyous matter. And I think Robert Smith exudes joy. I can think of the wonderful times we’ve had together, just like eating. There’s a restaurant in Chattanooga where I used to eat, growing up, called Beas. >>Robert Smith: (laughs) >>Timothy George: And Robert Smith and I have loved eating fried chicken at Beas on many occasions. So, there’s the joy of the table. There’s the banquet. But also along with that I think what Paul calls, in Philippians 3:10, the fellowship of suffering. >>Robert Smith: That’s true. >>Timothy George: The koinonia of suffering. We’ve walked through some valleys together. >>Robert Smith: That’s true. >>Timothy George: He with me. I with him. That’s not only bonded us, I think, as friends, but also given us a perspective on the ministry and on theology itself. So, both the joy, the feasting, but also the suffering, the walking through the valley. >>Doug Sweeney: How about you, Dr. Smith? How has your friendship with Timothy George made you a more faithful disciple of Jesus? >>Robert Smith: The very first year that I was at Beeson I became ill. And I had to go to the hospital. Of course, Dean George was there. I stayed in his home for two weeks. Sister Denise George was my nurse and he was my doctor. I mean, the kind of doctor that does you some good, you know what I mean? (laughter) Not a theologian, I needed some physical help. But I stayed in their home for two weeks and they waited on me hand and foot. Of course, Wanda came down and so with her being a nurse I was in great company. But it just goes to show you that friendship. When someone invites you into their home, to sleep in their bed, to cook for you, and take care of you for two weeks until you’re able to leave. I’ve never forgotten that. That left an indelible imprint on my heart. Dean George is right. We walked through some valleys, some physical valleys together. He and I. And we’ve shared deeply as it relates to those physical crises. The Walnut Street Bridge, the trips back and forth to Chattanooga, it was not so much just being in Chattanooga, it was what took place in that car. As we drove and rode to Chattanooga what we talked about, things that we shared together, eating at Beas, and now coming to Nicky’s West and other places, we just have taken time across the years to just fellowship and minister to each other, pray for each other. I’d call him, he calls me, and it would just be a matter of just praying together and that would be it. But that’s what it was. That was it. Really it. I just thank God for my Jonathan. I’m his David. Since I’m older by six months. He’s trying to catch up with me now because I’m 71 and he’s 70. So, I stay ahead of him chronologically speaking. He stays ahead of me theologically speaking. (laughter) >>Kristen Padilla: We’ve been talking a lot about your own friendship. I wonder if you could say a word about why it is important for Christians, whether they are faculty members, professors, ministry practitioners, or lay people to develop these types of friendships? What word of exhortation would you give to our listeners about the value of friendship and being a good friend for the Christian faith? >>Timothy George: You know, one of the great models for Beeson from the beginning and still today is Dietrich Bonhoeffer. We see his statue in Hodges Chapel whenever we enter. He helped to form and led an underground community called Finkenwalde. It was in large measure in the crucible of that very dark time in the history of Germany that a series of friendships were formed with Bonhoeffer, his fellow students, some of his fellow ministers that helped him to survive the very difficult years that were to follow. I think that’s the kind of thing we aim for. We don’t always achieve it. We have to recognize that friendship is not a right. We don’t have a right to have somebody has our friend. It’s a gift. It’s a gift that comes to us from above. We should thank the Lord for it and not take it for granted, but cultivate it and recognize that God uses these kinds of friendships to prepare us for deeper service for him and for his people and for his Church. >>Robert Smith: I’m always humble. I can’t wrap my arms around the statement in Hebrews 2 and 11. That Christ is not ashamed to call us brothers. I can’t ... Abraham was a friend of God. That Christ is not ashamed to call me his brother. That’s inexplicable. That’s inscrutable. It’s such knowledge, as the Psalmist would say. It’s too wonderful for me. It’s too precious. Well, if he’s not ashamed to call me his brother how can I be ashamed to call Doug Sweeney, Timothy George, Kristen Padilla, Rob Willis – my brother and my sister? It’s something that is not intrinsically automatic. We’re not born with that. But when we are born again and our nature becomes the nature, if you will, of Christ. Through conversion we become new creations, there is a sense of interpenetration between us so that we begin to feel each other’s pain. Not sympathy, but empathy. I can’t explain it. It’s just there. We’re drawn to each other. I’ve always appreciated Dean George. I think part of the retreat was for that very purpose. To get away and for us to get to know each other outside of the classroom and to become friends. Dean Sweeney, I appreciate my Dean Sweeney, because prayer is so huge for him. And that we began with a season of prayer where we understand that we have this treasure, but it’s an earthen vessel. So, crack pots and we all have our foibles and we all have our lacerations and cuts. I think by sharing in this way we’re drawn to each other and friendship is established. Beeson is a school in which not only the faculty, but the student body get to know each other and that has always been for me a sanctuary where I could come, with people who love the Lord and love me and we develop a bond that’s unbreakable because it’s in Christ. Yes, it is something that I believe the Lord brings. I know he brings it about. With people who are very different. Different denominationally. Different in race. Different in orientation and tradition. But what brings us together is that we are in Christ and when we’re in Christ that we cannot be out with each other. >>Doug Sweeney: These are wise words, dear listeners. If Timothy George and Robert Smith need friendship to thrive in Christian life and ministry, so do we. Let us encourage you to develop the friendships the Lord has given you already and to go out of your way, especially in this COVID19 season, so develop friendships with those the Lord wants to use in your life to help you grow up into Christ and to help you serve him better. You have been listening to Dr. Timothy George, the Founding Dean of Beeson Divinity School and currently Distinguished Professor of Divinity here at Beeson. And his dear friend, Dr. Robert Smith Jr., Charles T. Carter Baptist Chair of Divinity here at Beeson, and professor of preaching. We are most grateful to both of them for giving us their time today and for developing the kind of friendship that’s been a blessing to so many of us in the Beeson community. We are so grateful to those of you who are listening to this podcast and for your friendship with us here at Beeson. We cherish it. We love you. We’re praying for you. Goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.