Beeson Podcast, Episode #520 Jackson Wu Oct. 27, 2020 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I am Doug Sweeney here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. Today on the show we have a very special visitor. He’s on campus this week, delivering sermons and lectures for our Go Global Missions Emphasis Week. This is always one of our favorite weeks in the fall semester at Beeson, as we hear from missiologist, or experts in missions, about what God is doing in our world. We’re recording today’s conversation on Tuesday, October 6th, but this episode is airing on October 27th, which means that in just a few days we’ll celebrate Reformation Day, October 31st, when we remember Martin Luther and the nailing of his 95 theses to the Castle Church door in Wittenberg, Germany. Which helped to launch the protestant reformation. If you’ve been to Beeson’s Hodges Chapel you know that it features a mural depicting this famous scene. We are a reformational school. Firmly committed to the solas of the protestant reformation. Sola Gratia, grace alone. We’re saved by grace alone. Sola Fide, faith alone. We’re saved through faith alone. Solas Christus, Christ alone. Christ alone is our Savior and Lord. Sola Scriptura, scripture alone. The Bible is the norm or the standard by which we norm our faith and practice. And Soli Deo Gloria, to God alone be the glory. We give thanks to God this week for his servant, Martin Luther, and for all the men and women who’ve worked for reformation and renewal of the Church since the 16th century. Now, Kristen, tell us more about who we have on the podcast today. >>Kristen Padilla: Welcome, everyone, to the Beeson Podcast. We have as our guest Jackson Wu. Jackson is a missiologist, seminary professor in Asia, author, and one of the world’s leading experts on the subject of honor, shame, and the gospel. Dr. Wu has authored three books, “Saving God’s Face,” “One Gospel for All Nations,” and “Reading Romans With Eastern Eyes,” which we’re going to talk with him about today. So, Dr. Wu, we are so pleased to have you as our guest, both for Go Global Missions Emphasis Week and then on the Beeson Podcast today. Welcome. >>Dr.Wu: Thank you. I’m privileged. Thank you for the invite. >>Kristen Padilla: We always like to begin with an introduction. Can you introduce yourself to our listeners? How did you come to faith in Jesus Christ? I’m interested to know what drew you to Asia? And our listeners might pick up on that you have an American accent and not an Asian accent. Can you tell us about why you use the pseudonym, “Jackson Wu?” >>Dr. Wu: Absolutely. Great questions. Thank you. Well, I did not grow up in a Christian home whatsoever. I grew up in East Texas just north of Houston. It was more traditional, everybody is a Christian because you believe that God exists kind of a thing. But I started going to church on an “invite your friend to church” day when I was in eighth grade. I went there and I saw all these cute girls in short skirts and they fed me donuts. And I said, “Well, I’m no dummy. I could be a big fish in a small pond. I’ll keep coming to church.” Really and truly, just like that. After about two years I actually started paying attention. I read the Book of James. I heard that even the demons believe in one God and shudder. I thought, “Well, I’m on the wrong team. I need to think through this.” So, I became a believer when I was around 15. Grew pretty rapidly. For me missions was never something on my radar. I had not grown up in Christian culture. All I knew about “professional ministry” was the word “preacher.” So, I said, “Well, I want to be a preacher someday.” I mean, that’s all I knew. I just finished my masters degree in philosophy and we were trying to look at what we were going to do next. We thought about campus ministry. I just felt like, “I think we’re supposed to go to China. I know that makes no sense. I just feel like that’s where we’re supposed to go.” So, we went there and taught English for a few years. And then initially I did not embrace Chinese culture. I said, basically, “Over my dead body will I ever go back to that country.” I did not warm up to it immediately. Mainland Chinese culture is not the same thing as a lot of American-Asian, Asian-American culture. But the Lord gave me a change of heart. We went back to east Asia at first as a church planter and then started an underground seminary for Chinese pastors in east Asia. And then you asked me about my accent, or lack thereof, or whatnot. The name Jackson Wu is a pseudonym. Jackson is a family name. Wu is obviously an Asian surname. And part of the thinking there was, as my wife and I were talking, we wanted a name that reflected a lot of the perspectives and values we were trying to bring to our work. Because in everything that I was writing and processing I was in real in-depth dialogue with our Chinese brothers and sisters and basically nothing that I would publish or speak or teach was not heavily influenced by and filtered through a lot of conversation of Chinese pastors and brothers and sisters. But a lot of them, because they were underground so to speak, they didn’t have any kind of voice, and I thought, “I want to honor that this is so much from them.” And so I’ve come to find out that some people frown upon pseudonyms and whatnot like that, but it started off as a security reason and then we wanted to honor them with the name. So, that’s the background for it. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. Wu, we’ve already hinted to our listeners that you’re an expert in missiology or missions. You’re also an expert on honor and shame cultures. And surely some of our listeners already know what that means. But for those who don’t would you give us a little primer? What are honor and shame cultures? And what difference does it make for us to think about those cultures and their differences from ours as we try to be faithful witnesses to the gospel cross culturally? >>Dr. Wu: Well, first off I would say all cultures, to some degree, are honor and shame cultures. It’s just more of a matter of how it manifests. Honor and shame cultures are the broad category terms. They’re not all inclusive. They’re talking about tendencies within people’s worldview and cultural perspective. And honor and shame perspectives are often contrasted with a guilt/innocence perspective, or a fear/power perspective. The truth is all cultures have a combination of all of these lenses. Honor and shame culture typically emphasizes a few things: tradition, also collective identity, group identity, things like hierarchy and authority, position and social status all matter, understanding for one’s reputation and status in society, it’s just that people are more cognizant or sensitive to these matters. Which raises the question, “Well, what about in American culture in the west?” Obviously, people in the west care about these things as well. If you think about social media. I mean, it’s a bastion for honor/shame things. Cancel culture, so forth and so on. The American south is famously honor/shame oriented. Sports culture ... all you’ve got to do is watch people SCC football and you immediately will say, “Okay, WE won the championship.” Or people acting like fools in the stands. You know? (laughs) Because there’s a sense of collective honor and glory that comes along with that. So, doxing, where you shame people online. These are all different ways it plays out here. Anybody who’s been to junior high understands honor and shame culture. When I was living in east Asia, basically what I noticed is, wait a minute, these are all the same things I’ve seen back in east Texas, but the rules are just slightly different. >>Kristen Padilla: We wanted to talk to you, Dr. Wu, about your most recent book, “Reading Romans With Eastern Eyes: Honor and Shame in Paul’s Message and Mission,” which was awarded a Christianity Today 2020 Book of the Year award of Merit in the Biblical Studies category. So, congratulations! That’s a great honor. Talk to us about this book. Why did you write it? What are you trying to accomplish with the book? And what’s the story behind it? >>Dr. Wu: Well, thank you for bringing that up. I was very moved by Christianity’s honor in that regard, because one of my ambitions and desires has been to do whatever I can to help mesh missiology and biblical studies. That’s just always been my heartbeat. I feel like there’s been a huge chasm where a lot of biblical theologians aren’t familiar with missiology and missiologists don’t know biblical studies. There’s not a conversation. I’m constantly trying to press those two together. So, at one level that’s what I was trying to do with the book. But on another level I wanted people to see why honor and shame really matter for the Church and for interpreting scripture. And I understood that if I picked a book like Habakkuk, or Hosea, and I start talking about honor and shame people would be willing to give me that. Like, “Okay, sure, honor and shame is in there somewhere.” But what about those, the meaty books of Paul, law, and all that sort of thing? People would basically start kind of picking and choosing what part of the Bible they wanted to emphasize. And so I said to myself, “Well, if I can win the argument with Romans and say, ‘Hey, honor and shame matters for Romans,’ well then we win the conversation.” And so they see it matters for all sorts of areas of life and parts of scripture. That was a big part of my goal. Lastly, I really wanted people to see how the non west has so much to contribute to our understanding of scripture and to our understanding of being a Christ follower. And so this is just one small contribution in that effort. >>Doug Sweeney: All right, so the obvious question next is so how does honor and shame matter for reading Romans? Probably lots of people instinctively believe, “Well, it’s the same Bible and people from all over the world who are coming to faith in Christ are becoming part of the same family of God. What good does it do to emphasize culture differences when it comes to reading the Bible?” So, with that stuff in mind, sort of lay it on us. What good does it do to think about honor and shame, even as we’re trying to figure out what Paul’s doing in Romans? >>Dr. Wu: Well, I would like to first off say we’re not trying to insert honor and shame into the text. Honor and shame and it’s various themes and concepts are already there. All I’m suggesting is that let’s have a more robust lens. When we look at scripture and we look at it from this perspective and that perspective, this cultural perspective, we’re going to ask different questions. We’re going to notice different things. As one scholar put it, “a monocultural worldview is not as objective as a multicultural perspective.” That you can constantly challenge yourself and observe whatnot. So, that’s what I want to say at first. I don’t want to settle for what’s merely true in scripture. I want to say, “Well, what else is there?” Maybe I have true theology, but maybe I’m not understanding the emphasis that Paul is getting at in this section or that section. And so one very simple example is even our understanding of sin. In China, as like here, sin is oftentimes understood, initially, as a crime. Committing ... breaking the law. Chinese get that from western missionaries who come over and say it’s committing a crime. Well, the scripture is far more robust than understanding what sin is at its heart. And Romans 2:23-24 is one of my favorite passages to go to and highlight this. Where Paul says, “Those of you who boast no law dishonor God by breaking the law.” And then it quotes from Isaiah talking about God’s name is blasphemed. Well, the verb in the sentence is “dishonor” and there’s a prepositional phrase talking about breaking the law. The big idea there is that they’re dishonoring God. So, then I started noticing, well, the big rant that Paul has in Chapter One about then righteous in the world, there’s no legal language there. It’s all about dishonoring God, not giving honor to him, becoming shameful, so forth and so on. And of course the ever famous Romans 3:23, “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” And so you get a far more robust understanding of what sin is. That would be just one example. When I speak with Chinese I would say sin is kind of like spitting in your father’s face. And immediately you see them physically recoil back and go, “Oh. Okay, now I get it.” Whereas in a typical evangelistic conversation with somebody you talk about how sin is breaking the law. And they’d be like, “I’ve never killed anybody or robbed anybody.” They have no idea. Imagine if I said, “Well, you’re a criminal.” You’d be like, “Huh?” That was the same effect. >>Kristen Padilla: How does honor and shame, then, influence Paul’s mission as we read Romans? And then a second question to this is just as you are reading Romans, what passages maybe were that you saw or read differently thanks to your Asian brothers and sisters in the Lord who were opening your eyes to these things in the Book of Romans? >>Dr. Wu: Easily the book could have been titled, “Reading Romans With Collectivist Eyes.” Because honor and shame is inextricably tied and entwined with collective identity, group identity. And so one of the things I noticed right away was that Paul kept using Jew and Greek; Jew/Greek kind of language. Pairing those two. But he wasn’t consistent. It would just pop up and then go away. Then he’d talk about Jew and Gentile. And I’m like, “What’s going on here?” And without getting into all the nitty gritty details, what I saw Paul doing was he was using these honorific terms and word placement, whatnot, because Greek was an honorific title, to basically compare the whole Jew/Gentile relationship to that of the Greek barbarian relationship that he talks about at the very beginning of Romans 1. So, to the barbarians, that was kind of like the non Greek, the backwoods kind of people, and Paul wanted to get support to his missionist theme. But these Roman Greeks, they’re not going to be all that motivated, maybe at all. Maybe even be opposed. The idea of going to Spain [inaudible 00:16:27] barbarians. And Paul basically turns the table and said, “The same way you Roman Greeks look at the barbarians is like the way the Jews, the people of Israel, looked at non Jews, Gentiles. You guys, there’s a sense in which you say, you guys were the second class.” And basically don’t commit the same problem. In very broad strokes he uses the gospel and sees these social collective group identities in play. It’s not merely a what happens when I die? It’s a who do I belong to? What communities do I belong to? And that’s going to have an effect on how you understand the gospel, faith, and then of course mission, because it’s not about ethnic identity, it’s not about these insider ... because I come from cultural Israel or whatever else. >>Doug Sweeney: We’ve been talking around one of the big ideas in this book that you’ve done on Romans. And that’s the idea that everybody, no matter who you are, no matter what part of the world you’re from, you come to the Bible from your own cultural background and with your own cultural biases, even. I think that can be difficult sometimes for a US American to feel like it’s true. Can you help us with that? What would be some examples of ways in which American Christians are coming to the Bible with their own cultural background, biases intact, and maybe missing some things? For example, in the Book of Romans as a result? >>Dr. Wu: Yeah. Two things immediately come to mind. One, we come to the Book of Romans thinking about a law in the abstract and just right, wrong, [inaudible 00:18:16] I’ll do it or don’t do it. Forgetting the contextual factors of what goes into the law, which translates as Torah. Where it’s actually covenantal and forming the identity of a people, a collective identity. Whereas the covenant is a law, a law isn’t necessarily a covenant. And so we can oversimplify to a very superficial understanding of law and then it’s going to affect how we see the problem facing humanity, the problem Paul was facing, and then of course the solution. Along with that comes this idea of the individual. Whereas the basic categories that Paul is dealing with are people from a group mindset. I am a Jew, a Greek, a barbarian, whatever. You are not an individual, you are who you see yourself in these groups. Paul is trying to say, “Hey, these social cultural group identities are not primary.” So, if you’re just looking at Romans from an individualistic perspective, you’re going to miss some of these group dynamics that are still at play in our lives. I see myself fundamentally as a southerner, or as a Chinese person, or as a woman, or as a whatever categories you tend to use. Americans tend to look at identity as how I’m different than other people. Whereas east Asian and [inaudible 00:19:40] how am I similar to others? Of course, in truth, it’s a combination of the two. But you re-gain some of this collective identity, this group identity and how that forms and shapes us, this relational identity. You get a lot more of that in Romans and that’s going to affect his whole argument and his thrust. Also what you emphasize and what you don’t emphasize. To where, for example, Romans 7 oftentimes is the ultimate chapter of psychologizing the individual. Whereas I think there’s a lot more going on. >>Kristen Padilla: We recommend your book to our listeners. We’re going to move away from talking about the book as we finish up the podcast. I just want to put in a plug to all of you listening to find on Amazon or wherever you buy your books, “Reading Romans With Eastern Eyes: Honor and Shame in Paul’s Message and Mission.” So, thank you for sharing about your book. We look forward to reading it. I think what you have to say and what you bring to the American Church is really important for us. So, thank you for that. Earlier today in Hodges Chapel you gave a talk on really a theology of mission. And so I wonder if you could give our listeners who were not in chapel a synopsis of what you shared with our community today? >>Dr. Wu: Sure. Absolutely. I’ve really wanted to help people understand the diving logic of missions. The biblical story that goes beyond God loves people, or something as true as that and go what’s going on? And one of the things I wanted to emphasize is that the Abrahamic Covenant is absolutely fundamental and pivotal to all the rest of scripture such that the work of cross cultural missions is utterly critical, utterly essential, and necessary and indispensible to the Church’s place in the world. I am not trying to rank ministries. Like that ministry is more important than another. I’m simply saying it’s just so integral that it ought not be trivialized as just one thing among others. Because this is at the core of the argument. In the Abrahamic Covenant God identifies with Abraham in making a promise with all humanity that he will bless all nations through him. And so if God does not keep that promise then he would be a liar. He would be unrighteous. Well, as sinners who dishonor him and live in ways unworthy of him, we definitely don’t deserve that blessing. We don’t deserve to be part of his family. Well, so what’s God to do? He’s kind of at a dilemma here. Does he just bless the whole nations, welcome them into his family, and just kind of ignore evil? Or, does he condemn and judge evildoers? So, there’s this tension here. But yet God made this covenant and went through this [inaudible 00:22:49] victory oath. It’s basically where the symbol of, “if I don’t keep my promise then I die,” you know, it was kind of an ancient symbol there. And you go, what is going on? This is so scandalous. Well, in the cross we see that Jesus makes it possible where God can keep his promise to Abraham and remain righteous. And so in that sense Jesus dies for God’s sake so that he is glorified as the promise keeper. He is righteous. He brings about this promise that was given to Abraham so long ago. And so proper theology of mission recognizes the role of the Abrahamic Covenant in the way that Jesus died to help God be righteous in keeping his promise. >>Doug Sweeney: So, let me get you to unpack that a teeny bit further. Just for the sake of people who are listening to us now. We’ve got a lot of pastors who obviously are alums of Beeson and listen to our podcast. Almost everybody who is listening to our podcast is involved in a local church. You’ve presented this fantastic sort of biblical theology of missions. How should that affect the ways in which we in our churches talk about missions, think about missions, and do missions, get involved in missions? >>Dr. Wu: Well, for one thing I think that verbally ... I think we need to distinguish missions from God’s mission. It’s not because I’m trying to play semantics or prioritize missionaries over anything. It’s just that it needs to be a conscious decision to spotlight the importance of cross cultural work so that we understand God wants to reach all the peoples of all the world. So, at one simple level there’s that. There’s also a move now within the missional kind of thinking whereas as long as you’re reaching your community you’re okay. And I say don’t lose sight of God’s concern for the nations. Let’s be thinking intentionally about long term strategic things we can do to reach those who don’t have access to the gospel, who don’t have a sustainable church. So, it’s a place of does it have a priority within the scope of the ministry that we’re doing? >>Kristen Padilla: Thank you so much for that. We always like to end these podcasts by hearing just what God is doing in your life. What is he teaching you? Anything that might encourage or just help our listeners in their daily walk with the Lord? >>Dr. Wu: Thank you for asking. It was a little over a year ago that we had to come to the states because of various security concerns in east Asia. For me and my family it’s been quite the cultural acclimation. Many people will say that when you’ve spent so much time in a cross cultural context you return to a foreign country as well. Because it’s not the same country that I grew up in. So, I’m part of a fantastic organization called Mission One. They have embraced me and empowered me to do all sorts of things. But there’s still a lot of learning and adapting. My kids oftentimes speak of Americans as “those Americans.” (laughs) And, “they” are like this. And because they feel like they’re culturally Chinese. That’s where they grew up. So, anyhow, that’s an encouragement and a prayer request that we are making progress in that and that people have been very encouraging and affirming. Just last week we found out that we need to stay out of a certain country in east Asia for several years. We officially found out. So, there’s been some grief in our family. But we are so encouraged at the compassion that people have shown and the encouragement and the door that God has opened for us, to allow us to have ministry here. We feel really taken care of by the Lord. The timing of drawing us back has just been perfect. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, Beeson family, let’s pray for Jackson Wu and his family. We are so grateful that he’s with us this week. As we’ve said, he’s a missionary, he’s an expert in missions, he’s an award winning author, he’s been a seminary professor. Jackson, thanks so much for being with us on the podcast today. And to all of those who are listening, we love you. We’re praying for you. Thanks for tuning in. Please keep Beeson in your prayers as you keep Jackson Wu and his family in your prayers. We’ll see you next time. Goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.