Beeson Podcast, Episode 514 Dr. Shawn Shannon Sept. 14, 2020 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast, I am Doug Sweeney here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla, and today on the show we’re going to be talking with a very special Beeson alumna about collegiate ministry on university campuses. Before we do that, and even before we tell you why today’s guest is special, let me invite you to join us online on Tuesday mornings for our Beeson chapel services at www.BeesonDivinity.com/worship. During the covid epidemic we’re not allowed to have community members join us on campus, but we’re live streaming our worship services and we would love to have you with us. You can find our weekly worship schedule, again, at www.BeesonDivinity.com/worship. As always, you can stay in touch by email or phone, letting us know how we at Beeson can be praying for you. We would love to hear from you. Now, Kristen, will you tell us who we have on the show today? >>Kristen Padilla: Welcome, everyone, to the Beeson Podcast. It’s my joy to introduce you to today’s special podcast guest. Dr. Shawn Shannon is the Minister of Spiritual Formation at Tallowood Baptist Church in Houston after having served for 40 years in collegiate ministry on universities campuses. And so we want to talk to her today about collegiate ministry. Welcome, Dr. Shannon, to the Beeson Podcast. >>Dr. Shannon: It is wonderful to be with you. >>Kristen Padilla: We always like to begin by getting a personal look into who you are, your story, where are you from, anything you want to say about how you came to faith in Jesus Christ. >>Dr. Shannon: Thank you for asking. I am from the natural state, which Kristen you would know as Arkansas. I was born and reared, as we would say around those parts, in Little Rock, Arkansas. Except for a two year stint in the Army. Actually, my father was in the Army and I just got to go along for the ride. So, I was in Fort Bragg. Other than that, Little Rock. I think more than we realize how geography and our epics shape who we are. Being born in Little Rock in the ‘50s meant that part the culture of me growing up had to do with navigating civil rights and racial reconciliation concerns. That was the first social issue I cared about as an eight year old. And being in the hilly-ness of Arkansas and spending my summers outdoors at camps, I just had a natural leaning toward environmental concerns and ecology. When I was young and would go camping in the summers, the waters and the [ouachitas 00:03:18] were still pure enough that you could drink straight from them, which is just ... it was wonderful for me. I had, by the grace of God, I had a God sense from when I was little. I am glad I’m not a little pantheist but I might have been when I was younger. I would go walking in the woods and be kind to the trees so I could find my way home. Those sorts of things. But God became more personal to me, I think largely through the prayers of grandparents. So, grandparents, anyone called “granny” and “gramps” out there – keep praying, because it bears fruit. My father made sure I got a ride to church and in my eight year old year by brother was born, interrupting my status as the only child. We moved from Fort Bragg to Little Rock and I went to a new school. We lived in a big house then. And my parents and my brother lived on one end, I lived on the other. So, I had solitude as an eight year old. That was also the year Kennedy was shot. And all of those things created this sense of upheaval for me. I remember coming home and finding out that Kennedy had died. We found out at school he had been shot. And I remember laying down on the floor of my bedroom and feeling like the world was shimmying. And thinking, “If that could happen to a president, what’s going to happen to a little kid like me?” One morning when I was getting ready for church I had a fight with my mother about what color of leotards I was going to wear. That made me late to church. When I got to church it was a special revival Sunday. My granny and gramps were not sitting in their usual place in the balcony. And so I sat by myself. They were sitting with their Sunday school classes. And I thought about how I made messes that I couldn’t clean up, even an argument with my mom. And I felt so badly about that. So, this was also the first time I remember sitting by myself in a public place. And it helped me think. At the end of the sermon, the pastor asked if all the lost people would come down front. Well, I thought that was a great way to find my grandparents because I had no idea if they were lost or I was lost. So, I headed down the stairs, but part way down the stairs I thought, “You know? This doesn’t have to do with finding granny and gramps, this has to do with having a relationship with God.” I thought, “I do. I want a relationship with God.” I didn’t have the language for it, but I longed for someone big and good and stable. And I recognized that in God. I went down and took the preacher’s hand and said, “My grandmother will be here any moment.” Which was my first prophecy I ever uttered, because she was. And then they asked me about being baptized and I thought, “I need to involve my parents in this.” So, that was when the God piece came together. The Jesus piece took a few years. I knew Jesus was born at Christmas and he died at Easter. But how that fit together I did not know. Though my parents didn’t go to church at that time I went to any worship place with any little friend I spent the night with. So, I went to Temple and Synagogue and Nazarene and Presbyterian and Methodist, and even Unitarian. And that was really good for my training later in life. But my parents decided I was actively pursuing a relationship with Jesus they picked a church for me that was near our house. And I started going there. I had wonderful adults who helped me taste and see that the Lord is good. I can’t remember anything, any specific lesson from Sunday school, but somehow I knew that they loved me and that I was sure God loved me, because I saw it in them. A little longer in this ... when I was in junior high I began to realize that my decision to follow Jesus affected my whole life. It happened because I realized he was in charge of my body, and that because I belonged to him any decision I made that related to my body had to involve him. And I would never have known that was going to be the door he would use to say, “Your life is mine.” And then when I was 15, I discovered a friend reading a bible. And I didn’t know you could do that on your own. Beeson is so strongly in love with the Word. Well, I asked my little friend ... she was marking in her bible ... I said, “Can you do that?” She said, “Yes.” So, I got my little Reaching Out version of the Bible and that night I read Romans. But I mean, R-E-D. It got a little red marker and I “red” Romans. And what happened at that moment was my growth in Christ came into my daily life. It was no longer limited to the church musical or the retreat or the service – it was part of my life. Through Young Life I began to learn about discipleship. Young Life was also very clear with me that Young Life was not my church. I was to love the Church. By the time I got to Ouachita, I was clear that my main identity was disciple. In fact, going to Ouachita was the first time I asked the Lord about something in my life and he answered me. I was going to a school in Arkansas. Someone said, “Shawn, I guess you prayed about that?” I said, “No, I didn’t know you prayed about things like that.” So, I did pray about it and the short story is I went to Ouachita. But the larger story is I found out that I could ask God questions. And he could get a message to me. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. Shannon, as Kristen mentioned at the top of the show, you have 40 years of experience in campus ministry. Beginning back in 1980 as the Assistant Baptist Student Ministry Director at Stephen F. Austin State University. And retiring recently from University of Mary Hardin Baylor, as the Director of the Baptist Student Ministry there. After having served 19 years in that role. Can you tell us about your journey into university campus ministry? How did you become a campus minister, and what’s involved in the work of a college campus minister? >>Dr. Shannon: Thank you. That is a great thing to remember. I was involved in the Baptist Student Union when I was in college and though I had four different Baptist Student Union directors while I was in college it never occurred to me to consider that as a vocation. I also came from a church that had ... I grew up with women deacons. I didn’t know that was a deal until I went to seminary. And thought, “Oh, I’ve done something controversial.” And I didn’t even know it. But I was active in BSU and I went to seminary out of obedience. A wonderful thing about that was everything wonderful about seminary was a pleasant surprise – that we prayed in class, you know? I had very few preconceived ideas. When I went to seminary, the only thing I knew at that time was that I was not to immediately go into some kind of church work. So, that meant my discernment process was extremely important. I had the privilege ... I would say to students, “Steward your breaks.” In working with college students, a normal four year tenure will have eleven big breaks: Christmas, Spring Break, Summer ... and to steward those breaks to try on different vocations, to apprentice, to taste ministries, to serve – do it. Well, while I was in seminary, because I didn’t know exactly what had my name on it, I tried on different positions like working in social work and youth work, because those were things that lined up with my values. But I also learned that because something lined up with my values didn’t necessarily mean it was my calling. You would be very familiar with [Frederick Buchner 00:11:33] saying, “The place God calls you to is the place where your deep gladness and the world’s deep hunger meet.” I was taking class. Imagine this ... I learned my vocation because of a class. The professor had each of us fill out a small questionnaire. Then he gave us 15 minutes of his time in his office and talked that through. It had on it a list of experiences and interests and those sorts of things. And this was W F Howard. If you know W F Howard, he was the great father of campus ministry in the state of Texas. We shared a birthday, but only about 60 years apart. So, Dr. Howard, as he listened to me talk about things, he said, “Shawn, why aren’t you interested in student ministry?” That’s what he called it. And I just looked at him and I said, “Can I do that?” And he said, basically, “Why couldn’t you?” Well, here’s how it felt to me. It felt like I had a stack of little tiles that were experiences with camps and drama and trips and retreats and my love for reading and all of that. I had this little stack. But it was a stack. And when he said, “Have you thought about campus ministry?” It went [whoosh] and turned into a mosaic. And I thought, “Oh, my goodness. This gives a place to all these different weird little pieces.” So, to confirm that I spent that spring break shadowing my friend, Karen [Ahred 00:13:07], who was on BSU’s staff at the University of Arkansas at the time. What I noticed was in some of the other things I did, though they were meaningful to me, I was ready to be doing something else by the end of it. When I got to the end of the day and we came home from the campus I was eager to go for the next installment. I realized, for me, part of how Jesus confirmed a calling was I followed the energy. What made more energy than it took? And for me that was the opportunity to be sharing Jesus, knowing Jesus, loving Jesus, following Jesus, on the campus. So, I think it was because it was actually a lifestyle that agreed with me. Involved in campus ministry, a campus minister is by their nature a generalist. In a given week a campus minister will be involved with evangelism, discipleship, worship, missions, and service. And that just suited me well, because those were all things that were important to me and I wouldn’t let any of them go. Another thing I can add is churchmanship. As the concept of campus ministry in the State of Texas is that we are missionaries of the local church. Texas Baptists come together and propel missionaries into a place that has a specific culture and language and climate and calendar. So, we were missionaries there. I think the sorting out was helped by specific prayer, by apprenticing, by shadowing, and then being on the campus ... oh my goodness ... I just regularly felt quite alive. >>Kristen Padilla: Dr. Shannon, you did your Doctor of Ministry degree at Beeson Divinity School and I just found it interesting when I learned that you did your project on the spiritual formation of campus ministers. I think that just sounds wonderful. I would love for you to tell us about this project. Why spiritual formation? How do you understand formation? I’m going to ask a couple more questions. I don’t know if you can hold all of these together, but what challenges do campus ministers face that the spiritual formation is really necessary? And then what conclusions and suggestions did you come away with from your project for campus ministers? >>Dr. Shannon: Thank you. That is a rich series of questions. I’ll try to hit the gates. Spiritual formation ... sometimes we just simply need a name for something. I didn’t really know what teal was until LL Bean had teal in their catalogue. But once I had a name for it I recognized it everywhere. I didn’t have a name for spiritual formation, but I had an appetite for it. When I first began to hear the language of spiritual formation I recognized in it something that I had relished all of my life. I’m using spiritual formation kind of adapting Robert [Molhan’s 00:16:42] definition. It’s a process of being formed to the image of Christ to the glory of God and the good of others. Or, to say it in a different way, in spiritual formation we are helping one another grow closer to and more like Jesus. So, isn’t that what campus ministry is about, is doing those very things? It’s the job description. It’s the call. Challenges that campus ministers face ... the world of campus ministry is lived at hyper speed. You know this because you live in an academic setting. You have the birth, life, and death of a specific community, not only in nine months, which is long enough to bear a child, but you have it in those four month time periods of classes. Which means the communities are changing frequently. If you miss a meeting, you can easily go an eighth of the semester before you see a person again. Everything is urgent and important. Can I get a witness? Is that not true. >>Doug Sweeney: Amen! >>Dr. Shannon: So, in that environment campus ministers must stay alert to seize the day. In the midst of that there’s so much activity. And what happens to abiding? Abiding isn’t done by decisions. Just like following Jesus isn’t entirely done by decisions, it’s done by forming habits. If we, as a culture, worked more on forming habits than making decisions we would be a little more established in the Kingdom. So, abiding, what gets in the way of that? Jesus had a relationship with God the Father that he maintained at all costs. How can campus ministers do that? Because they are constantly pouring out. It’s so tempting to be a cup and not a reservoir. A cup can get awfully empty, much less dry or muddy or something. I felt the need for spiritual formation myself in my life with Jesus on the campus. I will say with the campus that means not just the students, that means staff and faculty and even the community in which the campus exists. So, I begin to look at those things for which I hungered and the things that gave me handholds. And that led to the components of having a project with campus ministers. I’ve always had a desire to invest in ministers. A friend of mine, in my twenties, said that anybody 30 or older needs to be opening doors for other people and investing in other people. So, I was over 30 when I started this DMin and I wanted to help my profession. So, what it involved ... it involved exploring spiritual temperaments. It involved revisiting our calling and looking specifically for common elements with the callings of Moses and Paul and Jesus. And it involved gaining access to books, to resources. It involved practices like keeping a weekly journal. And then the thing that got the most feedback from the campus ministers ... there were ten involved, which made all my statistics very easy. But was this – they were asked to observe a monthly Sabbath. And that was the thing that seemed impossible. Whereas I would say that in the last 20, 30 years if I’d not observed a Sabbath I would probably be not alive. So, and then they also practiced examine until it became a normal thing. Then the last things they did were to develop a rule of life – how they were going to live this kind of life – and a plan, a strategy for investing in the spiritual formation of other people. So, that was how it went. What I discovered is that people can only cultivate a few Godward practices and habits at one time. All of these people who were in the project were in their first year as a full time campus minister. May Lord catch them up on their rest from doing that their first semester. But, the components were useful. They could be put together. They could be done separately. It gave them things they could give away. And a few things they could keep. If you’ve read Nouwen’s article, “Moving From Solitude to Community to Ministry,” he talks about that we have disciplines so not all the spaces in our life get filled up. That we have a space in which to meet God. So, hopefully these things helped encourage new campus ministers to protect, to guard, those spaces where they could be with God, not as their boss but as their father. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. Shannon, many of our listeners will not know that you are both single and a woman. Many of us know that oftentimes both singles and women have a more difficult time finding a place to serve in the church, or even in Christian ministry outside the church. We know lots of single females in or after seminary who experience a little bit of discouragement as single women in ministry. Would you tell us just a little bit about your experience as a single woman in ministry? What were some of the challenges you faced that might be unique to single women in ministry? And how would you want to encourage other single women currently involved in Christian ministry? >>Dr. Shannon: That’s a very perceptive question to ask, because this side of Heaven I’m a woman. I think a hundred years from now the thing I’m going to be then that I am now is a disciple. And that makes a difference, too. But right now, by God’s provision and sovereignty, I’m a woman. And I’m living my life as a disciple in ministry as a woman. I’d like to mention some of those dynamics, first. One is that sometimes with, well, with both things – being a woman and a single person – there’s sometimes some accidental exclusion. I worked in a church one summer where I was the only single woman on the staff. And I really did have ... I was the youth minister ... I had the proverbial, converted closet that became the youth minister’s office for the summer. I was their first woman on staff and their second youth minister. Every Sunday after church, all of the married staff went to lunch together. And I don’t think they ever thought about it. But I noticed it, it didn’t feel personal, it felt educational. It was like, okay. So, I think the way to pay that forward has been to notice who’s not being asked to go out to eat? That’s a good stewardship of that kind of thing. A tricky thing about being a woman is that I am sometimes accidentally the representative of my gender. And for example – that can be a lot of responsibility – if I get touched by something or I’m moved by something and I cry, it’s not just that Shawn is tender hearted, it’s that women cry. Women are emotional. If I were going to be late for a meeting I would feel the thing about, you know, if I’m late people are going to think women are late to meetings. So, sometimes I’ve just felt that sense of, wow, I need to watch what I do. Not in a fearful way, but in a way of knowing that without meaning to I can reinforce stereotypes. Or I can give people reasons to say, “Women don’t belong here because of that.” I’ve also realized that most people will feel better about a woman in ministry, not because they’ve been argued out of some other stance toward that, but because they’ve had a good experience with a woman in ministry. And I’ve been aware that we only have so much energy to fly banners. One summer I preached ... I had a position in a national park where I was a maid for 40 hours a week, and then I was a leader of a team, and then I preached twice on Sundays. And my co-teacher was an African American young man from Chicago. My name is Shawn Shannon, which has no gender clues. So, when I would get up in the pulpit in the chapel, national park chapel, in the northern most part of Yellowstone National Park, and they would see that the Shawn Shannon that was preaching was me, I’d just, Lord as my helper, I didn’t see anything that would be helped by either defending or apologizing for being a woman. So, I would just do what I was there to do. I would proclaim the Word and love the people. I was encouraged by a man named Milt Hughes to select or discern my purpose first, and it was Colossians 1:28 which begins with, “We proclaim him.” Well, we proclaim him says that I don’t proclaim certain issues or stances or ... that I only have strength to proclaim one thing. And I want that to be Jesus. And so I’ve done that. God as my helper. There are some things that have been probably open to me. There are places I can go as a woman, people I can talk to. Paul really encouraged us, Jesus by example, to find the strengths of something and maximize them. Being a woman has strengths. Being single has strengths. People would ask, “When did God call you to be single?” The Lord has never had a conversation with me about this. I’m single. And so when I was in seminary I realized, by watching my young married friends around me, that I had some freedoms to decide to do some crazy things that they didn’t have the freedom to do because they had to care about a spouse, or a child. So, I could go do something for the summer where I made no money and they couldn’t. So, I thought, you know, if I marry someday I don’t want to look back on that and go, “My goodness, I should have maximized the strength of being able to do crazy things, because I’m single.” Then I also, this may sound strange, Dr. Sweeney, you may have never had this happen, but when I was in seminary there were some women who wanted to stunt their spiritual growth so they wouldn’t outgrow the people, the guys around them who could be their spiritual leaders – which is a misuse of the whole thing about spiritual leadership. And I just decided that I needed to go ahead and be everything I was going to be, because if I were going to be single forever I wanted to make the most of it. I did date a guy for about six years, and he had commentaries and camping equipment. When we did marry I did have to go get some commentaries and my own camping equipment. But I have not found, generally ... I’ve been able to serve as a single woman all through this. There are some things that haven’t been open for me. When I was in my first year of campus ministry my sweet pastors asked me about ordination. Well, at that time, ordination was a hot button issue for women within my denomination. And you know, it was wonderful to be asked. But I knew that at that time in the climate if I was ordained do you know what I would have to talk about all the time? Ordination. And there were just other things to talk about. Though, it would be nice. But here are some thoughts about ordination. I don’t know if the way we do it is all that biblical anyway, but I kind of wish that everybody, at some point in their life, could have the Body of Christ gather around them and say, “We celebrate your gifts for service.” Everybody be ordained. I can say that a couple of things about being single, and this might be helpful for married people to hear, is you don’t know in the Church how often it’s assumed that everybody is in a family. I went to church without my family and when we would come down from singing in the junior choir everybody was told to go sit with your family, and I had to kind of wander down the aisles and kind of elect my family du jour to sit with. I’ve remained sensitive to that. Not sensitive like offendable. In fact, it’s very good, of all the things not to be, it’s good not to be offendable. But there has been this sense, even in the church that there’s an assumption that people have families. And they might not. My immediate family has all passed over on the other side. And so there are questions about things like ... you know, if you have family members you know who you can inconvenience because your car needs to be repaired or you’re having a medical procedure. And with unmarried people that’s just a little trickier. You have to find out who are your people who can be bothered because of your life. And then another thing about being unfamilied is that there is this sense that the places I belong could possibly be removed. And so it’s good to belong to the family of God, be in the Church of God. But as a person without a family it’s always a little bit of a question, “What am I going to do for holidays and vacations?” Because it really is up for grabs. I think for all of us, all of us don’t know what it’s like to not be us. I have had friends of color who have taught me so much about my blind spots. I work in a world full of people who are not like me. It’s always been interesting. My peer world in ministry has always been predominantly male. My ministry world and ministry has always been predominantly female. And here I am. A little bridge. I hope I’m a bridge. But I am aware that a lot of the people who are my peers have no idea about things that they have no idea about. And may there be some trust and some gentleness for me to learn about their worlds, and for them to learn about me. I think the spiritual gift of winsomeness is just helpful in that regard. Because most of us never mean to be unkind. So, I hope that is helpful. But you can ask me those questions. I think it’s valuable for me to make my life available for questions, because I am a single woman minister. As odd as that might be as far as common. >>Kristen Padilla: Thank you, Shawn. That is such an encouraging word. >>Dr. Shannon: You had asked things about encouraging women in ministry? I think one of the things that’s helpful for us is to get ear training on hearing the Shepherd’s voice. And to remember that the Lord has thought more about our future than we have. And that he’s very redemptive. And probably for most of us, at some point in life, we’re going to look back and the strange circuitous path that brought us to where we are is going to look like a straight line. And to trust that. >>Kristen Padilla: Thank you, Shawn. That is so encouraging to, I’m sure, our listeners, but to me personally. So, thank you. We’re almost out of time, but I do want to ask you about your relationship to Beeson Divinity School. As has been mentioned, you are one of our alumna of the year award recipients. So, if you could just, in a couple of sentences maybe, or take a couple of minutes, to tell us what Beeson has meant to you, especially in your own formation as a minister of the Gospel. >>Dr. Shannon: Thank you. Beeson, for all the work it was, and I would say one thing about a doctorate is it can sure ... Well, [inaudible 00:33:30] doctorate. I don’t think there is any such thing as free time, because all time feels like it has a claim on it. But in its own way it was sabbatical, because when I was there ... Paul talks about this “one thing I do,” and when I was at Beeson this one thing I did. And it was wonderful. It was also good to have the relationships and to be taught. Lifelong learning is one of the best characteristics any of us can have. It just so happens that all of my actual professors, their names begin with “H.” I had Humphreys, Harris, Hall, Hull, Hughes, and House. But Norfleete Day supervised me. But I don’t know what the deal was with all the H’s. But that was a fun thing. I did not go into the program knowing what my project would be. But I was led into that. And I was ready for it when it was time. Some of the things that have stayed with me is this is good in general. I made peace with being edited. I hated that as a young person. But not only for my words to be edited, but to make something better. But even my life. I made peace with letting people give me feedback. I still can’t tell you exactly when to use affect and effect. But I worked on these things. And I hope I became a better communicator. I also, my soul was refreshed by the setting, by the chapel. There was a pace at Beeson that managed to be both purposeful and unhurried. I wanted to take that with me forward into the next thing that I was to do. >>Doug Sweeney: We like to end all of our podcasts by asking our guests what the Lord is doing in their lives these days. Shawn, would you mind blessing our listening audience by letting us know what God is doing or teaching you these days in your daily life? >>Dr. Shannon: When I retired from campus ministry I was repurposed into church staff. At a time in life when all of my friends were retiring. So, it’s been an interesting thing to ponder: time of life. Ralph Waldo Emerson, if we may include a deist here, said this time like all times is a very good time if we but know what to do with it. And put that together with David observing in Psalm 31, “My times are in your hand.” And then Paul saying, “Redeem the times. The days are evil.” It’s just trusting God with my times, with this learning curve that happens at the same time as Medicare. That I am walking in this new path. And in terms of the difficulties I find again and again that much more important that falls on me is where it falls. If something lands on me that’s difficult may it fall on the outside of my relationship with God, that it might press me into fresh dependence on and intimacy with him. Jesus still goes about doing good. And he works for good in all things. And the work he began in me he’s going to be faithful to complete. There’s a wonderful little prayer from Teresa Avilla that talks about “enjoy me.” And I believe that is Jesus’ invitation to me in this season of my life. For me to enjoy him. >>Doug Sweeney: Amen. You have been listening to Dr. Shawn Shannon, Minister of Spiritual Formation at Tallowood Baptist Church in Houston, Texas. For many years active in campus ministry at a couple of different schools around the United States. And very significantly for us here at Beeson, right now, she is an alumna of the year of Beeson Divinity School. Thank you very much, Dr. Shannon, for being with us. We had a wonderful time with you. Thanks to all of you for listening to us today. We’re praying for you. We ask for your prayers as we continue to navigate the covid virus here on the campus of Beeson Divinity School. And we say to you, goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.