Beeson Podcast, Episode #506 Dr. Patricia Outlaw, Dr. Calvin Bell, Dr. Mary Moss, Dr. Thomas Beavers July 21, 2020 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m Doug Sweeney, your host, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. Today’s episode will be the third in a three week series of episodes with four African American alumni on racism and racial injustice. We hope you tuned into our last two episodes. We talked in the first one about our guest’s encounters with racial injustice during childhood. Then in the second episode we dealt with our panelist’s experiences with racial sin as adults. In this final episode we’re going to ask these friends for pastoral wisdom as we deal with these sins in the Church. We’ve been praying that God’s spirit would use this brief three part series to help us all do better with these matters in our lives, our churches, our world and even at Beeson Divinity School. We hope you’ll want to join us in praying and working on these challenges as you listen and pursue the Lord’s will in your own spheres of influence. Kristen, will you please introduce today’s guests? >>Kristen Padilla: Our first guest is the Reverend Dr. Patricia Outlaw who is the pastor of Oak Grove AME Church in Florence, Alabama. She graduated from our DMin program in 2002 and taught as an associate professor of divinity at Beeson from 2001 to 2015. Our second guest is the Reverend Dr. Mary Moss who is the senior pastor of St. Alma Baptist Church in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. She also earned her Doctor of Ministry degree from Beeson in 2009. Our third guest is the Reverend Dr. Thomas Beavers who is the senior pastor of New Rising Star Missionary Baptist Church in the Eastlake Community in Birmingham, Alabama. He graduated from Beeson with an MDiv degree and later a DMin degree in 2007 and 2013 respectively. And our last guest is the Reverend Dr. Calvin Bell who is the senior pastor of Bethel Baptist Church in Bessemer, Alabama. He earned his MDiv and DMin degrees from Beeson in 2011 and 2017 respectively. We’re recording this podcast following the recent killings of Arhmaud Arbery, Brianna Taylor, and George Floyd. We’d like you to reflect on our current moment, especially as pastors and what the conversations look like in your respective communities and churches. And how you are helping members of your church, especially at this time, processing the most recent killings of these three individuals. I wonder if we can start this time with you, Dr. Beavers? >>Dr. Beavers: Well, to be quite honest I have not seen our church probably in over two and a half to three months because of Covid19 and primarily we’ve been pastoring online. So, we really haven’t gotten a chance to talk about this. Most of my conversations have been with White pastors, White clergymen, White businessmen, people that I have relationships with that are asking me about racism and asking me to help them understand. I will say, in general, Black people – me included – for most of us this conversation is 450 years old. So, when Black people see it ... we’re tired of talking about it. I think after the death of George Floyd, I mean, that was just horrific, but at the same time the good part about it is that I believe it was the tipping point not just for America but for the entire world. Now that the world has seen that I think most White people that I know are at least waking up and saying, “You know, maybe we really do have a problem with racism in the United States of America, and a racism inside of this world.” So, now that they’re waking up and seeing it and examining themselves, most White people that I know are saying, “Let’s come to the table. Let’s talk.” And most Black people, because it’s a 450 year old conversation, are like, “I’m done talking. I’m ready to take action.” So, it’s almost like a man and a woman being inside of an abusive relationship. She tries to talk to the man, saying, “Hey, stop abusing me.” And the man continues to abuse her. Then finally she gets the courage to leave the relationship and when the man sees that she’s serious, finally, he says, “Well, can we sit down and can we talk?” And the woman is like, “I’m done talking.” So, at the point where he’s ready to talk, like she’s done talking. I think that really describes the conversation of race in America. Most White people are ready to talk now and most Black people are ready to take action. >>Kristen Padilla: Dr. Outlaw, what would you add to Dr. Beavers’ statement? >>Dr. Outlaw: Well, first of all, I think that if we’re going to resolve a problem we have to name it. So, what comes to my mind is post traumatic slavery syndrome that many of us are still suffering from the effects of slavery. Whether we acknowledge it or not. In order to remediate a problem you’ve got acknowledge that you have a problem. So, in the same way that we talk about post traumatic stress syndrome, all of us are being affected, whether directly or indirectly, by Covid19. So, our church members are similarly being impacted by Covid19 and in our case, in Black churches, they’re impacted by post traumatic slavery syndrome. So, in our Bible studies we’re walking through the Psalms. Last week we were in Psalm 9 and this week we’re in Psalm 10. We’re able to articulate what the text is saying, but also make it relevant to where we are in the here and now. And to acknowledge our grief, our pain, our anger – these are legitimate feelings and the notion that Christians aren’t supposed to be angry or express their angry is a myth. So, we have to help our members to be able to articulate what it is that they’re feeling. Not only what the church members are feeling, but what the pastors are feeling. My position is if you’re hurting you should say “ouch” and not pretend that you’re not feeling what you’re feeling. So, when people ask me, “How are you feeling?” I tell them I’m angry. I tell my church members that I’m angry. I’m reminded of a t-shirt that one of my church members had made for me. It says ... it has a stop sign, a black t-shirt with a stop sign on it. It says, “Social distancing. Six feet.” I joke with them about it. Because when I preach and we were in the sanctuary I often talked about how the priest put me on a behavior plan and I didn’t know it, because I used to cuss all the time. So, that I could stop cussing so much. I said I was thankful for the t-shirt because it keeps me from having to cuss somebody out who gets too close to me, who is not social distancing, because they’re in denial about the effects of Covid19 and the reach of Covid19. So it is with people with post traumatic slavery disorder that they don’t understand sometimes what they’re saying and what the implications of what they’re saying to me, or what it is they’re doing, and so I give my parishioners permission to be honest with themselves to acknowledge that they’re hurting. They’re in pain. To talk about that pain. And to know that they have a place where they can talk about it that is the Body of Christ. So, we don’t need to deny racism in America. It is what it is. We need to acknowledge it. And then we need to work toward correcting it and remediating that which needs to be changed. >>Kristen Padilla: Dr. Bell, what would you add? >>Dr. Bell: Like Dr. Beavers said earlier, I’ve not had a whole lot of conversations about [parishioners 00:08:25] as a result of Covid19 and they’re still sheltering in. However, the majority of my conversations have been with my DMin cohort of students that I studied with during the MDiv program there at Beeson, and also students from Southeastern Bible College, most of them are White. Also pastors who are in our community. I have spent a lot of time in conversation with both groups, but on the side of pastors in my community, a conversation last Friday, I was in a conversation with a fellow pastor in Bessemer. This pastor openly just stated that, “I can’t believe that so many White people are on Facebook or covered on the news, people who are supposed to be Christians, who have [us on blast 00:09:12] for protesting, riots, and all of the other things. Do they not understand ... they can’t be [inaudible 00:09:19],” he said, “There is no way that these people ... some of them are pastoring churches who are White. They can’t be saying that they don’t understand our plight.” So, I said to him I’ve been in-between two communities for 22 years, since 1998 going back as far as the first African American in [inaudible 00:09:37] department and on to Southeastern Bible College, being a minority on that campus as well as Samford University as well. So, in over those 22 years I’ve developed a relationship with a lot of White people – many of which are close friends of mine. People who I know are saved, but yet their political views and maybe other views are very different from those of mine. Their life lived experience is very different from that of mine. So, I told that pastor that all of us have blind spots. To kind of go into Dr. Outlaw’s word there, that we have those areas of the things that we don’t see. We don’t know, we don’t understand. Because they are not our reality. They are not our lived experience. So, I told him I know many great White pastors who may not be as sensitive to the African American plight as you know you and I are, nevertheless I know that they are saved. So, I don’t question their salvation. I just think it’s just an area of blindness in their particular lives. I gave him the illustration ... his wife happened be there and we were with family members to be exact and so his wife, she’s always been afraid of dogs since she was bit by one when she was two or three years old. So, in essence, she’s just kind of been prejudice toward any dog until over the last two years, I think, her daughter ended up getting a dog. And so she’s fallen in love with the daughter’s dog. Now she’s re-acclimated herself to being a dog lover. But I told him that just as your wife’s understanding about dogs is they’re all vicious, they’re all dangerous, they’re all hurtful – there was blindness in her because of her experience in that way. Her reality was that dogs are dangerous. So, here it is that we are in a time and a space where we are having conversations and people are beginning to see things. So, let’s wait it out. Let’s pray and let’s see if they’ll come around. But this pastor, here again, like many others in my community, they are frustrated because of all of the backlash that’s being spoken and communicated, or the silence as Dr. Beavers articulated about White pastors during this time. So, again, Black pastors question White pastors and White Christian’s salvation. And I’m on the defensive side to say, well, that doesn’t necessarily have to be true. >>Kristen Padilla: Thank you, Dr. Bell. Dr. Moss, how might you wrap up this question series? What would you add? >>Dr. Moss: As it relates to the conversation that we’re having with our people and hearing from them and hearing their hearts. They are overwhelmed. Simply because of Covid19 and of course the racism that seems to be just unnecessary blatant murder. So, it’s too many questions and too many unknowns. What we are basically doing with them as we are engaging them in conversation is taking them back to our ancestors, who against their own will believed in the power of God. And they never lose sight of that. So, in my conversation with them, and in my leading them, pray is very, very key. [inaudible 00:12:45] wrote a book about Black preaching and I pull very strongly on two of his domains right now. So, I am caring for the spiritual soul. We talk about feelings, how they feel. We talk about all of the emotion that’s been dealt with so far, trying to help them be real. But I keep every before them, regardless of what it seems like, and even as we deal with 400 years of slavery, the God whom we serve has never failed us. Somehow he brought us out. And so if you ever want to do anything it’s the time to look back to the God of our ancestors, who have proven down through the years that he brought us through so much. And now he has brought us to this stuff. We’re not trying to be elusive or evasive. But we have to keep hope in people. Because the truth of the matter is some people are committing suicide. And I think who we are comes with the [mantle 00:13:46] of hope. So, with being true about some things, I never leave the conversation without prayer and without looking ... as the psalmist says, “I look to the hill whence my help come from,” all of our help is coming from God. He can handle all the atrocities of this world. We just have to wage the war. >>Doug Sweeney: It’s time to ask the big question. And the big question has to do with what we are doing in our churches to confront racism and racial prejudice. And what we ought to be doing in our churches, even if we’re not doing it yet. And I know people get tired of being asked by other people, particularly a White guy like me, what should people in the churches be doing – but we have a lot of listeners who are pastors, pastors in training, serious lay people in congregations ... So, let me put it this way to you: In your African American congregations you’ve been working on these things for years. Could you summarize for our audience what kinds of things have you been doing in your pastoral ministries, in your congregations, to address the sins of racism and racial prejudice in the society? And then maybe if I could add just one more sort of Part B to the question. Insofar as you’re willing to encourage the rest of us, and speak to White Christians, White pastors who are only recently really getting mobilized in trying to make a difference with respect to the sin of racism and racial prejudice. What do you want to say to them by way of encouragement and motivation and suggestion? Why don’t we, again, start, if you don’t mind, Dr. Beavers, with you. >>Dr. Beavers: Okay. You cannot stop somebody from being racist, but you can arm and empower yourself to put yourself in the best position as possible to make sure that the systems of this world do not hold you back and do not hold you down. As a consequence the mission of our church is twofold. Number one, we exist to know Christ and to make him known to the entire world. Number two, we exist to help people have a higher and a better quality of life on earth. We are very involved in community development. Our zip code is 35206. It is high crime. It is high poverty. We believe that the two are interconnected. If people don’t have what they need they take it by any means necessary, which is also connected to a disparity in education. When kids grow up they are unable to get a quality education. If they get a job at all they become a part of the working poor. And they have to climb high to get to the bottom. As a consequence, we believe the way to combat these systematic racial systems of education and healthcare and things of that nature is through community development. We see it as how we develop people. Our communities are people not buildings. We develop people in six ways. We do it through education, financial literacy, workforce development, housing, recreation, and the Church. We have different programs, different things that we do in all six of those areas. Education-wise we have an early childhood development center. It’s easier to mold the mind of a child than it is to change the mind of an adult. Also, when school is out we’re in. So, we can have spring enrichment, summer enrichment, after school enrichment. As far as financial literacy we have a credit union. The NRS Community Federal Credit Union. It is federally insured by the NCUA. We exist to put all the pay day lenders out of business. We have several pay day lenders inside of our zip code that are getting rich off of the backs of poor people who are primarily Black. So, we offer all the same products and services as a pay day lender, just designed to get people out of debt and not keep people in debt. Workforce development. We partner with organizations such as Workplace Birmingham, Hope Inspired Ministries, our short term goal is to get people jobs. Long term goal is to make [inaudible 00:17:55]. We own homes inside of our communities. We fix them up, make them affordable income based housing. We have a 30,000 square foot family life center that we use for recreation. The recreational question is what is there to do in the community? A lot of times when people act out it’s not because they’re bad, it’s because they’re bored. So, we use our family life center to that end. Then there’s the church. So, we believe that it’s important for any community to thrive and to prosper to make an investment, at minimum, in those six areas. And that’s what we are trying to do. I think the last thing that I can say to encourage people is not just to encourage them but also challenge them. Traditionally we have been taught in Euro centric perspectives to keep politics separate from the pulpit, but that is not the tradition of the African American. If you think about the African American church and the African American church tradition, the church was a place not only where we came together to have church on Sunday and worship God corporately on Sunday, it was a place where we organized and where we strategize against the ills of society and injustices of society, which also included politics. I don’t think that you can address racism without addressing politics. I don’t think you can address racism without addressing the political climate of this world. Regardless of what you think about who is in office, you cannot do it because what leaders do in moderation people will do in excess. When you look at who is inside of the office. This has nothing to do with Republican or Democrat or Independent. But when the one who is in the office continues to use reckless rhetoric to insult people of color, calling countries with people of color “asshole nations,” calling people who protest peacefully by taking a knee during the playing of the National Anthem in the NFL, these “sons of b’s ought to be fired,” and the list goes on and on and on. Racially insensitive remarks such as after the death of George Floyd he says, “I think George Floyd is smiling down from Heaven this day because the economy is taking a turn for the best.” I mean, I could just go on and on and on and on. The reason I say it’s not a Republican or a Democratic thing is because even if you don’t agree with a Republican being in office, we’ve had Republican presidents in the past, and even if you did not agree with all of their policies no President has ever been so un-presidential in the things that they say and the way that they insult the American people. And so until we address what is going on in the White House, I believe that reckless rhetoric has incited the environment that we are in right now for these issues of race to rise to the top and for the climate that we have in the country at this particular moment in time. So, I don’t think any longer that you can separate the pulpit and politics. I think we need to be addressing this even at the political level as well. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. Beavers is the pastor of a large urban congregation that’s doing lots of amazing things with respect to the challenges that we all face today. Maybe as the rest of us respond to this question we should say a word about what our setting is, what kind of congregations we serve and therefore what kinds of things we’ve been working on in our communities through our congregations. Without further ado, Dr. Moss, could I turn to you next? >>Dr. Moss: Thank you, Dr. Sweeney. I am a small congregation. Rural. And so I am in the process of changing, not only the aesthetics of the place, but the mental mindset of the people. My congregation is predominantly ... the median age is 40. And so I am, if you will, shaping a generation. I am turning them from church-goers to actually being believers on mission. We are basically doing at our church at this time, we have a strong focus on education. And whether it be financial literacy, whether it be health, even inclusive of mental health, emotional health ... we have a strong focus on entrepreneurship. Trying to help people to own, ownership for me. When I entered into that congregation very few of the younger people owned homes. I was very instrumental along with my staff in helping them to become credit worthy and ready to buy homes. We walked them through the process. We even networked so that they could have a path to follow. Because we believe the words of Jesus when he says I come so that you may have life and have it more abundantly [zoe 00:23:03] a quality of life and so we’re doing that for our young people. We have a strong focus on family. Where families are taught values. And there are certain ways in which we have tried to help these families stay together as families. Dad in the home and et cetera. So, that’s been a strong focus of our church. Community is key. We are very intentional with our mission in the community, within a ten mile radius, because we are small. So, we focus ... like in the next week, even though it’s Covid19 we will still reach out to the elderly in the community regardless of which church, and we will have fresh food. We have food deserts. So, we’re preparing 100 bags for the elderly along with masks and along with sanitizer. And information to help them survive. So, we’re trying to be relevant and to help people survive at this present time. >>Doug Sweeney: Thank you. Dr. Bell, what’s going on at your church and what advice do you have for other church people these days? >>Dr. Bell: I pastor Bethel Baptist Church here in Bessemer. We’re in inner city Bessemer. Our church is 134 years old. We are 100% African American. Median age range is probably 55. So, we do have some younger people, but the majority of the people are older people. So, what we’ve been doing here at Bethel Baptist Church, by and large, is just trying to encourage people to continue to spread the gospel. To believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. These are very painful times. I’m a very hands on type leader. I’m the kind of guy that little kids come to my office on Sunday. Their parents or grandparents before the service say, “Oh, come out of the pastor’s office.” They know that they’re welcome. I say, “Oh, leave the kids alone.” So, that’s kind of my model of leadership, open door, very friendly, and kind of knowing what’s going on in the lives of the membership. I encourage our leaders of various ministries in our church to kind of reciprocate that same kind of leadership model so that we are engaging each other. So, even as we have been sheltered over these last several months, I’ve encouraged all the ministry leaders to think of yourself as the pastor of whatever type of ministry it is that you’re leading and model that ... make sure you’re calling and checking on them, find out what their needs are and so forth, and if there are things that you can help them with then let me know, let the one of the [inaudible 00:25:30] deacons or what have you know and we’ll see what we can do to address those issues. But now as it relates to the pressures of the tension of what’s going on with Covid, murders of Arhmaud Arbery, Brianna Taylor, George Floyd, and the frustrations of those things. What I’ve been trying to do is keep our membership in the mindset of when we’re thinking of being angry at the people who perpetrated these crimes, police officers or what have you, we have police officers in our congregation. So, I said, “Listen, we can’t hate police officers. We know good police officers. Let’s not duplicate the same sin that some other people have done over the years of just looking at one people group and just kind of tagging them ... they’re Black, therefore ...” so forth and so on. In our congregation we want to model the idea of that people are people. There are good people and there are bad people. There are righteous people and there are sinful people. In reality all of us have sin nature and we’re subject to do all kinds of things. So, I lead them right to Romans 5:8-10 where God mentions love toward us and that while we were yet sinners, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. So, I remind our congregation we’re all sinful. We all have sin natures. And therefore as soon as you want to point the finger at someone else for what they’ve done wrong, then we ourselves have to remember that when Christ died we were all on the chopping block. We were all doomed to eternal damnation had Christ not given his life in our stead. So, while we were sinners he died for us. Romans 5 and 10. While we were enemies of God. He completes this work. We were the enemy of Christ and yet God still sent his son, Jesus Christ, to us. With that mindset I’ve encouraged our congregation to continue to do what we are supposed to, what we have been called to do as Christians. To continue to publish the gospel. I know that we are hurt and we are frustrated, but we cannot stop being witnesses for Christ even though we are in these very tense times in the world. So, we are the BBC, Bethel Baptist Church, BBC, and I kind of pull that idea concept. My wife and I were in London and there was the BBC world news and so I’ve kind of adopted this model of BBC. We are the BBC. We’re not publishing world news, but we’re publishing the gospel of the good news to the world. Publish the good news about Jesus Christ to the world. So, that’s the word that I echo in every service around here – is that we’re to publish the good news about Jesus and remember that he loved us so much that he gave himself up for us. So, let us step back from the situation far enough to be able to say, okay, we know what prejudice looks like. We know Arhmaud Arbery, Brianna Taylor, George Floyd, and a plethora of other people have been subjected to these same kinds of violence. They’re going to continue perhaps, but we hope that they won’t. In the meantime let us stay committed to what we’ve been called to do and that is be Christians. Be like Christ. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, Dr. Outlaw, you get the last word in this episode and in this series. Would you please tell us what’s going on in your church and give some advice to other pastors and series lay Christians who are trying to do better with respect to the sins of racism and racial injustice in our society? >>Dr. Outlaw: I currently serve Oak Grove AME Church in Florence, Alabama. It’s in a rural section of Florence. About 2 hours and 15 minute drive from Birmingham. Historically, the African Methodist Episcopal Church was founded out of blatant racism on the part of the Methodist Episcopal Church, which became the United Methodist Church in 1787. Richard Allen and his cohort walked out of St. George’s Methodist Episcopal Church and founded the African Methodist Episcopal Church because of racism in the church. Racism still exists in church. Sunday is the most segregated hour of the week. The 11:00 worship hour. And so we are mindful of that. We are mindful of our history. And we teach our history at our church. We also teach liberation at our church. What I am aware of, having served four churches in the Birmingham area as well as one in [inaudible 00:30:00], I guess that’s five churches all together, is that in this particular church in Florence I have not only African Americans who are members of the church, but biracial children who are members of our children. Which goes all the way back to the fact that these are the children who come out of mixed relationships. And so I’m sensitive to that. We preach the gospel. We cater to the emotional, physical, and spiritual needs of all people. And so ultimately our goal is to have a multicultural church. We already are multicultural because we not only have African Americans who are pastors of our churches, but if you go ... we have 20-some Episcopal churches across the Diaspora. We have people of brown and black and white pastors in our AME churches. So, what we’re doing in this Covid19 season and the season of where we’re grieving the loss of George Floyd and Arhmaud Arbery and others is giving our parishioners permission to feel what it is that they’re feeling. And so I’m on the phone a lot in this season because we are social distancing and in our telephone conference calls where we have Bible study we are listening to hear what the people are saying and to affirm what it is that they’re feeling. Not to negate under the guise of religiosity or spirituality. There’s a tendency that people would have ... because we’re Christians we’re not supposed to feel. We’re not supposed to be angry. We’re not supposed to have ... but we have to acknowledge our pain in order to heal. So, in this season I’m doing a lot of listening. And when we’re not social distancing we have persons at our church which we call “missionaries” who go out into the community and feed the hungry, take clothes to the homeless shelters, collect socks to give away to the homeless, and so there are a number of activities that the people are engaged in. But in this season of Covid19 we are dialoging. We are listening and we’re talking to each other, and we are supporting one another through prayer as well as through conversations. I would say that while we’re talking about what we’re doing in our churches, I would challenge some of the listeners, persons who may be listening, or will listen to this podcast who are not members of predominantly African American churches, who may be members of the other persuasion, if you will, the White dominant churches, that they need to begin to own their racism and repent. Seek ways to reconcile with those who have been the victims and still are the victims of overt racism. And not just overt, but covert racism. In order for us to heal, we have to acknowledge that there is a problem. There is a problem. It’s not going to go away overnight. I believe that it can be resolved. But we have to acknowledge that there is a problem. Be willing to listen. Be willing to ask the tough questions. Be willing to engage in other organizations, for example, Alabama Faith in Action which was originally Birmingham Faith in Action, a consortium of not only Christian ministers, but also Muslim brothers who are a part of that organization, to try to bring social ... to address social justice issues in the community. So, I would say reaching out and making connections with people who don’t look like ourselves. Even in terms of when we say we’re going on the mission field, what does that look like? Well, missions can start right here in Birmingham. And in Florence. It can start locally. >>Doug Sweeney: Thank you very much. You have been listening to four very wise pastors. All of whom are alumni of Beeson Divinity School. We are extremely grateful to them for this gift of time. For three podcast episodes on what we should be doing, what we are doing, and should be doing better to address the sins of racism and racial injustice in our society. Thank you very much, Dr. Patricia Outlaw, Dr. Thomas Beavers, Dr. Mary Moss, Dr. Calvin Bell – for leading us in this conversation. We are grateful to you and we’re grateful to our listeners to tuning in. We love you. We’re praying for you. God bless you. Goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.