Beeson Podcast, Episode #503 Rebecca and James Henderson June 30, 2020 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson podcast. I’m Doug Sweeney here with my co-host Kristen Padilla, and we are coming to you again today from our shelter-in-place locations. We are grateful for the technology that enables us of course but we are longing for the day when we can be back together again in the Beeson Podcast studio. Today’s conversation will be the third episode in a three part series about our 2020 issue of the Beeson magazine. We hope you check the magazine out on our website, www.Beesondivinity.com, and have enjoyed reading or maybe even listening to some of the articles in our audio version. We are furthering the theme of the magazine today, “Being Human,” as we talk with today’s guests. Kristen, who are these wonderful Beeson alum we are featuring today on the podcast? >>Kristen Padilla: Hello, everyone. These people are [inaudible 00:01:24]. I’m so glad to have them on the show. We have a married couple, both who graduated from Beeson. We have James Henderson who earned an MDiv in 2019. So, a recent graduate. He is a chaplain at UAB hospital here in Birmingham. And his wife, Rebecca Graber Henderson, earned her MSTS MSW in 2019 and is a mobile unit counselor for the Birmingham Crisis Center. And she’s also an ordained Deacon in the Anglican Church of North America. So, we are thrilled to have this power couple on the show today. And why don’t you begin by giving us an introduction into who you are individually and then also as a married couple. >>Rebecca: So, I’m obviously Rebecca and I work at the Crisis Center, as you said, Kristen. I grew up in the church. I was baptized and confirmed in the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church because my grandmother raised me. So, she took me to church every week and I was able to grow up in that way. But really had a journey that exposed me to a lot of different denominations. I’ve been a part of Christian Missionary Alliance, Southern Baptists, and some non denom churches as well. But I really felt called to the Anglican Church right before I graduated, or before I started Beeson. One, the opportunity as a woman that I would have and then also the global presence of the Anglican Church. Especially as someone who felt called to work at that time in missions. So, I was encouraged by a college minister, also Beeson alum, Joel [Busby 00:03:16] to consider Beeson. For me that was a big step in the faith. The church is something I am obviously called to, but the church also is in my story a big spot of woundedness to myself and to other people I really love. And as someone who cares about gender violence, sexual violence, I have also seen how the church has failed in that way. But I think God has called me to that because he wants his church to be his hands and feet. He wants his church to be a place where people who have been wounded can actually receive healing. So, I can’t run away from my mother, as Martin Luther would say, and so I’m here as an ordained Deacon. And then I’ll let James talk about his journey. >>James: I also was raised in the church. I was the son of an air force officer. So, my family moved around quite a bit. I came to faith at a pretty young age. I had a conversion experience around the age of five and then was baptized about a year later. My dad is an ordained Deacon in the Southern Baptist Convention. So, my faith has been pretty significant all throughout my life. I think it was in high school that I first started to really make my faith my own, though. But it didn’t really develop just beyond recognizing that I have a personal relationship with Jesus. Ministry was never really something that was on the table for me for quite awhile until I had gotten to college. And it was there that under one of my mentors who taught an Old Testament class that I began to realize the riches of the Christian tradition. Just the beautiful depth of the Bible in a way that I had never experienced. That sowed the beginning seeds for my interest in ministry. But it was even a few years after that where I had experienced a few closed doors and career avenues I was trying to pursue that things finally came together and I ended up pursuing a call at Beeson. I also explored through several different denominations, part of the reason why I chose Beeson was because of the interdenominational emphasis we have here and the ability to learn from a variety of perspectives. >>Doug Sweeney: James and Rebecca, you both have made wonderful contributions to this issue of Beeson magazine that we mentioned in the intro the show today. And we’d love to talk with both of you about your contributions. It might be easier since we’re on a virtual platform here if we kind of take you one by one. So, we thought, James, if you don’t mind, we’ll begin with you and ask you a few questions about the wonderful article that you wrote for this magazine. I have to say I thought it was very powerful. I love the piece. >>James: Thank you. >>Doug Sweeney: You wrote a piece called, “Indispensible: Discussing the Humanity of People With Disabilities.” As we said, this issue is on what it means to be human. And so your piece fit in very well. The title of your article came from 1 Corinthians 12:22-24 where the Apostle Paul says that, “the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensible, and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpreventable parts are treated with greater modesty, which our more presentable parts do not require, but God has so composed the body giving greater honor to the part that lacked it.” So, James, why are people with disabilities indispensible to the life of the Church and what do you think Paul is trying to teach us there in 1 Corinthians 12? >>James: A hard question, but also one that I love to talk about. In some ways I think without trying to be reductionistic, because just the arena of disability is so vast and broad that it’s hard to give any one particular answer to this question. I think in some ways, in many ways individuals with disabilities serve as kind of the quiet prophets of the Church. They really embody or have the potential to embody what it means to be totally dependent upon God’s love and grace. When I think about the life of my brother and the unique joy he brings to our family, it’s something that doesn’t stand out amongst the crowd, isn’t something that really catches the attention of a lot of people, and yet he has a unique ability to really be who God created him to be, unencumbered by pride in a way that is really difficult for me and I think a lot of other people. I think in the context of 1 Corinthians 12 we see the Church at Corinth is really clamoring over who has the flashiest gift. Like who can speak in tongues? Who can be the best prophet? Who can preach the best? It’s all these gifts that really rise to the forefront of the church’s attention. While people with [inaudible 00:08:11] disabilities, like certainly my brother is a ham and loves to tell jokes and loves being in front of people. It’s been a way that he models the type of being that is uniquely situated to love and to be an avenue of grace for other people. Because of his limitations, he is already living out a life that requires dependence upon someone else. I think that gives him unique opportunities to then model what dependence upon the Lord looks like to the rest of us. >>Kristen Padilla: James, you’ve already referenced your brother, [David 00:08:45], and I wonder if you could just share a little bit more about him. He has Down Syndrome and the article for the magazine is written from a very personal perspective. So, perhaps you can tell us more about David and how he has helped you to think about the humanity of those with disabilities. And then maybe even mention what I think is one of the best parts of your article is this video of your brother being baptized. It’s really amazing and beautiful. So, I wonder if you could talk more about that. >>James: Yeah, absolutely. So, David is a typical guy who grew up in the 1990s. He loves video games. He’s really great at them. As I mentioned before, he can be quite a ham. When I first brought Rebecca home to meet my family I guess David didn’t think I was moving fast enough. And so he stepped in and asked Rebecca to marry him. (laughs) So, that was quite an experience. But there’s another story that stands out to me. I remember one time I took David out for ice cream. I don’t think I mentioned this in my article, but I think I put it in a paper I wrote for Dr. Malysz. So, we were on our way home and I was feeling particularly goofy that night. So, I started for some reason using an Italian accent and told David to stop spilling chocolate ice cream in my car. He thought that was hilarious. For years after that ... I get a little emotional talking about this ... he will bring that up when meeting new people. And if I’m honest sometimes when that would happen it would be sort of a non sequitor of what was happening in conversation, but it was relatively recently that I realized he values relationship just as much as I do. In the same way that I might tell someone about, hey, there’s this really funny time that my wife did something and I’d like to share this with you. He was doing that with other people. So, I reflected upon what it means to be human. It’s deeply relational. It’s like we, especially coming out of the enlightenment period, it was long in the Church emphasized and elevated the intellect and reason as something that’s defining about our human experience. And while that’s definitely a part of it you can’t reduce it to that. And so kind of incorporating [inaudible 00:11:08] baptism there, there is a point in time we realized David can’t articulate in the same way that many people can his need for a savior. But if you asked him, “Hey David, what does it mean to sin?” He might mention that when he yelled at his sister because they bicker like any other siblings do. But he wouldn’t be able to give you an articulate comprehensive understanding of the atonement. But he can tell you that he loves Jesus. So, recognizing that, we mentioned it to the church that David had never been baptized but he’s been around for 23, 24 years at the time. So, there was a really key moment where my sister had also come to a point of faith and so she was baptized ... because as I mentioned we grew up in the Southern Baptist Tradition, and so the video is this really cool moment of all of David’s friends and family gathering around the baptistery and him entering the waters and the minister asking him, “David, do you love Jesus and do you accept him as your Lord and Savior?” And him just looking up at the minister and nodding, “Yes, sir.” And being baptized and then coming up to a bunch of exuberant cheers from family and friends. It was really cool. Because while his faith had always been there that was his formal entrance into the Church. >>Doug Sweeney: James, as you know, listeners of this podcast tend to be pretty serious church people; pastors, eager lay people, pastors in training ... and I bet by now a lot of them are wondering, “So, what would James say we ought to be doing better when it comes to incorporating people with disabilities into the lives of our congregations?” Any practical advice for them based on your own experience? >>James: Again, because disability is so broad and so wide. I used to work for a nonprofit here in Birmingham. I worked with individuals with special needs. I remember the first time I heard someone say, “If you’ve met someone with autism, you’ve met someone with autism.” (laughs) People with autism are individually unique. People with down syndrome are individually unique. So, it’s hard to give a blanket ... “Yes, this is the thing you should be doing to better incorporate people,” however, in light of that I think serious lay people and clergy who really want to incorporate individuals with special needs or disabilities into their community need to adopt a posture of curiosity and be willing to take the initiative. Because so often families who have members with special needs or a disability often have to be on the offensive of explaining and justifying their way of being, their very existence. And so it’s a breath of fresh air when a family has a minister come to them and be like, hey, we’re really excited you’re here. We want to learn more about you. What is David able to do? What does he like? We know he’s a member of this body, so he has gifts. What is he interested in and how can we help him serve here. How can we serve you? There’s a give and take here where ... I think a danger can be even in churches that do acknowledge people with disabilities in their congregations can fall in the trap of infantilizing them and making them objects of charity. So, they do a really good job of relieving some of the pressures and the difficulties of living in the world with a disability, but they make it very one-sided and don’t recognize that these people have vocations as well. So, if you can take that initiative and recognize that from the beginning that they are human, they are incorporate members in the Body of Christ, and then be curious – just be willing to go in and say, “Hey, tell me about your experience. What has this been like? How has this been difficult? What have been some of the joys? How do you want to get involved?” I think that can be the springboard to really figure out the unique ways each individual can be incorporated, but it just requires that kind of initiative and that curiosity to begin to have the conversation with these people. >>Kristen Padilla: Rebecca, we want to talk with you for a few moments. You were one of several alumni who I interviewed for the magazine to help us think about how this theme impacts the ministry that we do with people. And we specifically wanted to interview alumni who are working for people who society might devalue. And so I wonder if you could share with our listeners, especially ones who may not have read your interview yet, about what your work with the Crisis Center looked like pre Covid19, which is when I interviewed you. Who have you worked with? What are their basic needs? And what does your ministry look like there? >>Rebecca: Yeah. So, pre Covid I was hired on as the mobile unit counselor. It was a completely new program for the Birmingham Crisis Center. The mobile unit is an RV that is equipped to provide medical examinations for what we would call acute sexual assault nurse examinations. And then also follow up. So, it is created to be for sexual assault survivors. So, we have the medical aspect, which I do not do. I am not a nurse. But I do the counseling for sexual assault survivors and what we would call secondary survivors, people who are close to a sexual assault survivor. So, it could be a family member, a friend, a partner – who also is struggling after the assault to support the survivor. And it was created by the Birmingham Crisis Center really to reach the needs of rural survivors. So, people in Blount, Jefferson, Walker, and St. Clair counties. People who we serve at the Birmingham Crisis Center with our rape response program, but because those places can be up to an hour away or more aren’t able to take advantage of things like counseling or also to get free medical follow up. Because in the State of Alabama if you are sexually assaulted you only have 72 hours to report to get that exam. If you’re outside that window, one, a lot of prosecutors won’t accept the evidence, but then two, you would need to go to the hospital to get your follow up, and may have to pay. We’re able to offer that for free so people don’t have barriers to get help after such a traumatic event. >>Doug Sweeney: What a crucial ministry. We wonder if we can get you to reflect on it for our people, theologically, a little bit. Just by saying a word or two about how it is that your Christian, biblical, theological understanding of what it means to be human has to do with your work, how it’s shaped your ministry to the people you serve? And then maybe on the other hand, how has your experience doing this kind of ministry shaped the way you think about what it means to be human? >>Rebecca: Yeah, so my faith is integral in the work I do. I don’t work for a Christian organization, but I also don’t think I could or would do the work I’m doing if it weren’t for my faith. First and foremost, yesterday on the Church calendar was Ascension Sunday. It’s the Sunday where we remember Christ who bears the scars from going to the cross, and continues to bears those scares as he ascends to the throne. So, not only did he suffer with people, but he is the one who is able to actually give justice to people who are suffering. So many times survivors do not get justice from the legal system. We see that day in and day out in the work we do. We hope and sometimes we see, but a lot of the times we don’t. Then also to be human, I really see to be human is to be in relationship, as James said. And it is something that is given to us by God who has created us. And in that we see in the garden that man is not meant to be alone. He and she are meant to be in relationship with God, they’re meant to be in relationship with one another, they’re meant to be in right relationship with themselves, and they’re meant to be in right relationship with creation. So, that also informs the work that I do. Trauma is an experience of powerlessness. Trauma is something that rips apart relationship, especially sexual trauma. And it’s something that when it happens not only impacts your mind, your way of thinking, but impacts your body. Survivors may have difficulty not just with sexual intimacy, but they may have higher startle responses. And so recognizing that God has created us as integrated beings. That I cannot separate my emotion from my intellect from my body has been especially crucial in the work I do. Then the work I do has informed my faith, one, by just reemphasizing that. In the interview I said I can’t be a Gnostic (laughs), I see how important our body is into how we move in the world. We’re seeing that in Covid of like we are on Zoom, the way we’re relating here is very different than the way that we relate when we’re in-person. But also I interact with people who have experienced something that no one should go through. And then post Covid I’m also working on the crisis and suicide line. So, I get the honor, but also the burden of interacting with people who are suffering immensely. And so I have really ... my work has informed just the great empathy and the great kindness and power of God. Because there are times when I’m like I’m at the end of my rope of giving of myself, or feeling like I can enter into this person’s pain. Because I go from one person’s pain to another, and I’ve been amazed by the fact that God does that more and more deeply than I do, and he does that with each person. And so I think that’s made me need God more, but also just be more in awe of God. >>Kristen Padilla: Rebecca, as you think about our listeners, as Doug has already said, who are church people, many of whom are pastors, how does your work inform or form just your ministry as a Deacon in the church? What would you like to say to churches and pastors and elders about the humanity of sexual assault survivors, or even the people that you are ministering to in light of Covid19? >>Rebecca: One of the calls when you are ordained as a Deacon in our church, the call of a Deacon is to interpret the hopes and the hurts of the world to the Church. And then to be the Church in the midst of the world. That’s one of the reasons I love being a Deacon because it’s like this is what the Church needs. The Church can’t be the Church without doing that. And so I get a unique perspective. But we also ... I mean, we have seen in the past few years the reckoning the Church is going through with sexual assault survivors. The abuse that churches have perpetrated or been participants in by covering up and not believing survivors. And I think one thing that churches and leaders can do is to be quick to listen and slow to speak. I think a lot of the time people, especially pastors and leaders in the church, rush to speak and rush to what they would call preaching, but they don’t actually sit in the midst of pain. So, how can you preach when you don’t know your people? And statistics would show survivors are about one in four women who have experienced sexual abuse, about one in six men. So, knowing that in your congregation there are people who either have or are currently experiencing abuse and are going through great pain. And then I think also ... I see it in my work every day ... I think a good reminder is are we practicing, again I’m an Anglican but I love Martin Luther. Are we practicing a theology of the cross? Are we recognizing it is Christ who does the work? Or are we practicing a theology of [glory 00:23:56] – are we trying to be the Messiah? Because at the end of the day we can’t. I can’t be everything to everyone and neither can a pastor. But it works so well with James’ piece, a body with different gifts and abilities, so being able to sit and listen, recognizing limitations. For example, a lot of pastors don’t have training in mental health. So, giving that to a professional to do while continuing to provide the pastoral care. And recognizing the gifts in your congregation to minister to survivors. And knowing it’s not just your job as a pastor, but a community to create a space where people who have experienced great pain can actually feel safe. >>Doug Sweeney: Kristen made a brief reference at the end of her last question to what we’ve learned during the Covid crisis, and I’d love to draw out, Rebecca, just a little bit more on that. If you’ve got anything to say that would be edifying to our listeners about how your experience as a minister of the gospel in the midst of the Covid pandemic has shaped the way you think. Maybe especially about what it means to be human, but other things, too. And then I want to draw James in as well, because he serves as a Chaplain at UAB and he’s a spiritual first responder in the midst of the Covid crisis. So, it doesn’t matter to me what order we go in, but would you mind just telling us a little bit about what your experience has been like? And if there’s any great insights about what it means to be human that have emerged from that experience during the Covid season, we’d love to hear it. >>Rebecca: I kind of mentioned it earlier, so I am still providing tele health to survivors, but they also have me assisting without crisis and suicide lines. So, I’m getting a wider birth of the pain that people are experiencing right now. And then as a social worker and a therapist, something that really guides my view of what it means to be human is called attachment theory. Which is that we, as humans, our worldview is shaped by the relationship we have with our primary care giver, but it can be shaped throughout your life. But it just shows that there is such a great need to be connected; that actually the relationships that we engage in matter. And that also we see in kind of neurological studies that the physical presence of someone matters. And we are really seeing the impact of that during Covid. We are seeing, one, I would say we’re experiencing a mass trauma of powerlessness during all of this. But we’re also experiencing something which really impacts our bodies that we can’t separate our intellect and our emotions – that God has actually created our bodies and our emotions to worship him and also to help us relate to him and know about ourselves. So, we’re seeing in Covid people who are having trouble sleeping, who are having increased depression and anxiety, a lot of people who are thinking about suicide, and some of that is coming from a break in relationship, a break of incarnational relationship. And how much we need that. In the trauma work I do the physical presence is essential, because we may work with someone who’s physical response of having someone in the room who is a safe person and someone who can actually pick up on the physical cues that a person is demonstrating is important. Because those are actually impacting their healing and their processing. So, I think in this recognizing that, one, as a pastor, as a leader, you’re going through stress, too. And that’s coming out in your body and your emotions. And I know this phrase gets overused, but being gentle with yourself, because think of Christ who is that gentle shepherd. God who portrays himself as a mother hen trying to gather her young. A God who is tied to someone who is suffering. Remember that. Christ is that to you. And Christ is that to the people who are suffering. I think that’s what people need to know right now. They really need to know that there is a God who suffers with them and a God who is over all of it. I think that’s something in Covid to remember for yourself, but also for your parishioners. >>James: Piggy backing off of that, similarly the importance of incarnational relationship. As she mentioned earlier, it’s amazing what we can do with technology these days and be able to have this interview over video. But it’s not the same thing as being in the same room gathered around a table with microphones. Similarly, pre Covid all of my visits were in the rooms with patients being able to see them, to experience their bodily presence as they’re suffering, and there’s something ... not to hype on the word incarnational, but there’s a reason that God became man. And this ability to be with someone and suffer alongside them. Even if you can’t solve the problem. There’s something unique and Christ like about that. And unfortunately because of the pandemic some of that’s been cut off to some degree. The hospital more or less went on lockdown for a few weeks where outside of end of life situations there are absolutely no visitors allowed. And they’ve recently loosened that a little bit. So, certain patients are allowed to have at least like one visitor with them, so long as that person wears a mask and stays by the bedside 24 hours. And seeing that, just the distinct difference between the dispositions of the family and the patients when no one was allowed and when now people are slowly being allowed back into the hospital. You can even just sense the difference in the atmosphere being there. So, I think that just again reveals more about the relational aspect of what it means to be human, and that means a physical element to that as well, of actually being present with somebody. One last comment, kind of wrapping it back into my article about the special needs community. I think it’s important to have these sort of conversations about what it means to be human, because it directly impacts even things like triage. I remember reading an article that when hospitals are starting to be concerned that we would be over-run with vast amounts of Covid patients, there were ethical questions that were coming up on, “Who receives a ventilator if we don’t have any?” And I remember looking over an article where there’s the possibility that those with lower mental capabilities would be lower on the list on receiving that. And that just speaks volumes to what we actually value as a community. It’s can you produce something, can you ... are you of tangible value to the society and that’s deeply disturbing. So, these questions on what does it really mean ... what do the ethics of being human actually mean affects every aspect of the fabric of our society. So, it’s just important to continue to have these conversations about things. >>Kristen Padilla: We said it. You are strong Christian people who love the Lord and love his Church and love the Word. Is there any last bits of encouragement that you’d like to leave with our listeners? >>Rebecca: I think, like I mentioned earlier, a lot of people have a lot of questions about where is God in this? What is God doing? And we don’t completely know. We know God is sovereign, but in this time recognizing that God is giving us, in some ways, a unique opportunity to rest. And being able to find that God cares. That even when maybe you may feel so isolated and so alone that Christ has not abandoned you. It can feel that way sometimes, but Christ is still there. And as his people ... I mean, and encouragement and an exhortation, a reminder, that there are people who are suffering in your church and you may not know. Being able to ask the hard questions of, “Are you actually okay?” Because we, as Christians, have the unique opportunity to see the presence of Christ through the power of his Holy Spirit. So, an encouragement that Christ is with you, with all of us, praise God that he is in control and we are not, because all of us, especially me, I’m struggling with a loss of control – or an illusion of that – but God is in control. Also that God is very near in suffering. We don’t have kids, but my heart goes out to people with kids. When your kids are driving you mad and you don’t have an outlet that God is both with your kids and with you. Or if you’re a single person having to go through this without someone who could be your partner and be your helper that Christ is your helper through the power of the Holy Spirit. And that it’s okay to reach out for help, to reach out to your pastor, maybe you struggle with trusting a pastor, reach out to someone in your church. Or to reach out to anyone so you can get the care that you need, because this is a hard time for all of us. >>James: Yeah, and I’d say when reaching out to people it’s okay not to have the answers. One of the most striking passages in all of scripture for me is just, “Jesus wept.” And understanding the context around that. Knowing that he knew he was on his way to raise Lazarus from the dead. And yet saw death as something terrible and mourned it with Martha and Mary. We don’t know what he’s doing and why and how he’s going to work out everything. But he’s present in this moment and mourning and weeping with us. And that’s significant. So, as you are the hands and feet of Christ to other people, it’s okay to just weep with people and to not rush to any sort of cliché that may sound good in the moment but actually does more harm than good. >>Doug Sweeney: Wonderful pastoral wisdom. You have been listening to Rebecca and James Henderson. Both alums of Beeson Divinity School, who happen to be married to one another, and both of whom are active in ministering the gospel in very crucial ways these days in the Birmingham area. Rebecca, again, is a mobile unit counselor for the Birmingham Crisis Center. James is a Chaplain at UAB hospital here in town. We are so grateful to both of you for being our brother and sister in Christ, for representing the Lord so well, for your faithfulness in ministry, and even for being on the show with us here today. Thanks to both of you. Thanks to all our listeners. Again, we are praying for you. We know many of you are suffering these days. We love you. We hope this show is a little bit of an encouragement to you. And we say to you, goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.