Beeson Podcast, Episode 502 Michael Pasquarello June 23, 2020 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson podcast. I'm Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host Kristen Padilla on a platform called WebEx, which I bet some of you know about, it�s a lot like Zoom and many of us are using it these days. This platform enables us to podcast as we�re all sheltered in place during the covid19 crisis. Here at Beeson Divinity School this is the 16th week that we�ve all been working at home, at least much of the time. Many of us are sick of it, but God�s blessings abound, even at times like this. One blessing I've experienced during this time of quarantine is my proximity to Wilma, my wife. For more of every day as well both work from home. I don�t think she�s sick of me yet, at least she hasn�t said as much, and I sure have enjoyed being near here during these past few months. How about you, Kristen? Any surprising blessings on your end? >>Kristen Padilla: I would add to that being with my family is such a blessing, and then really getting to know our neighbors. We've seen a lot of neighbors that we�ve never seen before. So, that has been a real joy and blessing for us. >>Doug Sweeney: I have to agree. We've been doing that as well. Folks, we know this is a difficult and anxious time for many of you, but we are praying that you�re experiencing special blessings in the midst of it. Today�s podcast is the second episode in a three-part series on the theme of our 2020 Beeson magazine, �Being Human.� There�s a spending freeze at Samford while we weather this current covid19 storm here in town, so we can�t print the magazine, but you can find a really nice digital copy, with audio as well, on our homepage: www.BeesonDivinity.com Kristen, would you please introduce today's guest and get this conversation started? >>Kristen Padilla: Yes. Hello, everyone. We have our own Dr. Michael Pasquarello III with us. He was a guest on the podcast pretty recently last year. So, perhaps you�ve heard him here before. He is our Methodist Chair of Divinity and Director of the Robert Smith Jr. Preaching Institute at Beeson Divinity School. He�s also the author of many books. But one I�m going to mention as it relates to today�s conversation is �Dietrich Bonhoeffer and the Theology of a Preaching Life,� published with Baylor University Press. So, thanks for joining us again today, Mike. It�s good to have you on the show. >>Mike Pasquarello: Well, thank you, Kristen. I'm glad to be here. >>Kristen Padilla: As I said, you are a guest, not too distant in the past on the podcast and so instead of introducing yourself again, we encourage folks to go back and listen to episode #468. How about you give us an update from corona quarantine. What have the last many weeks looked like for you? What projects are you working on these days? And anything you�d like to share. >>Mike Pasquarello: Well, sure, thank you. Like everyone else it's been quite an adjustment. I miss being on campus. I miss being with our colleagues at Beeson Divinity School and most of all I miss being in person with our students. When we went into having to stay at home I was teaching a course on John and Charles Wesley, which we finished quite well, and I was very pleased with the work that students did as we continued online. My wife, Patty, is a nurse educator and so she works from home as well. Like Dr. Sweeney said, I've enjoyed just being around here more during the day than I'm normally accustomed to, and it's been a really special time for us that we have enjoyed � trying new recipes, watching some movies together, getting out and walking around the neighborhood, and like you, I have met neighbors that I had never seen before. I�m a regular walker in our neighborhood, but now I see lots of folks out walking at all times of the day, and get to look forward to seeing them each day. Being at home has given me an opportunity to focus on some projects. I have a book in production with Erdmann's. The title is, "The Beauty of Preaching," and while we've been at home I did corrections and revisions for the copy editor's work and then corrections for the first run of the proofs, and I compiled the index. And so it�s moving on schedule and due to be published in August. I�m looking forward to seeing it. I'm also working on a chapter that will be a contribution to a book of essays with the title, "Preaching in the Traditions," and my chapter is "Preaching in the Methodist Tradition." So, I've been working on that. Then the other thing I've been doing is just starting the background reading to get ready for my fall classes. And I�ll be teaching a class on Pastoral Theology and a class in History and Doctrine. So, I�m staying busy. The other thing I would say is it's been a time of much sorrow and sadness, as we as God's people really do our best to share in the suffering of the world and seeing a loss that so many people are experiencing on a day to day basis. And so it's been a time of recognizing how utterly dependent we are on the mercy of God. And I�m thankful for that and we pray for the world as God�s people and we look forward to the ways we can minister to and serve the world in this time of great loss. >>Doug Sweeney: Amen. Well, Dr. Pasquarello, as I mentioned before, the theme of our 2020 Beeson magazine is "Theological Anthropology,� what it means to be human, understood biblically and theologically. And you have contributed a significant piece for this magazine on how theological anthropology connects with practice of Christian preaching, which is what we want to talk with you about today. You begin that article in a really interesting way. So, we thought we�d begin the substantive part of our interview with you by asking you about your introduction. You say that you�re tempted to lament the state of preaching in our time. How come? What is it about the state of preaching that you lament? And why? >>Mike Pasquarello: Well, there�s a number of things and it would really require a long conversation. So, let me give you one that�s related to our topic today. I�ve been convinced as a theologian of preaching, a homiletical theologian and an historian of preaching, that one of the significant missing pieces in modern preaching is an anthropology that is truly worthy of the gospel. Visions of humanity are communicated between the lines in much contemporary preaching. But their base, they�re grounded in assumptions that we absorb from the culture. So, for example, if we believe that the Church should be run like a business and that it provides goods and services or commodities to people who are consumers, preaching then is crafted accordingly and people are addressed in a manner that sounds very much like the culture. But that�s a view of humanity that is not what we believe, based on scripture and Christian tradition, that we are created in God�s image and that in Jesus Christ we�re being restored and renewed in God�s image. So, one of the things that�s concerned me about preaching is just how people come to see themselves through preaching. Even though it often happens quite indirectly and it may go unspoken, nonetheless in a very implicit way they�re being formed in shape. And also left asking many questions. The primary one being who am I? >>Kristen Padilla: To follow on that, after you lament the state of preaching you go immediately into Dietrich Bonhoeffer because he has something to teach us and to help us today. Specifically, you draw on some lectures he gave to his students in Finkenwalde at his underground seminary. Can you tell our listeners, first, who was Dietrich Bonhoeffer and second, what he said in the lectures that you�re wanting us to consider or hear today as we think about preaching and humanity? >>Mike Pasquarello: Sure. Dietrich Bonhoeffer is remembered throughout the whole Church as a witness to Jesus Christ and a martyr who was executed by the Nazi�s for his resistance to Hitler�s reign of terror in the 1930s and 40s. He was a theologian educated at the University of Berlin. He was a pastor and he was a preacher and he was a teacher of preachers. Finkenwalde was an illegal underground seminary that was run by what was called The Confessing Church. It was a church that resisted. It refused to acknowledge the Nazi�s very intentional agenda of Nazifying the Church as a way of Nazifying all of Germany and the hearts and minds and the souls of the German people. Bonhoeffer, rightly so, is remembered for his faithfulness and his hope, and just the steadfast work that he did. The other thing I would say about him that�s related to our topic is he was deeply concerned about the way that a vision of humanity had been lost in his day. He saw in both the dominant theological vision of the German culture, which was liberal Protestantism from the 19th century, and also with the vision of humanity that was being set forth by the Nazis � a way of being and living that had separated people from God and turned them back on themselves, to determine by their own will and their own understanding who they were and who they wanted to be and how they would live. He saw the destructive consequences of that. So, an important and integral part of his teaching at Finkenwalde was to bring together in an integrative way theology, the study of scripture, pastoral ministry, and preaching. And that�s one of the things I love about Bonhoeffer and that he�s so instructive and helpful for our time, because he shows us how the learning that we receive as we prepare for ministry all fits together and serves the life of the Church and the ministry of the Church. He was an example of that, but then he also shared how to do that with his seminary students at Finkewalde. >>Doug Sweeney: Mike, you also make some very important claims about Christology, the study of the person and work of Christ and its relationship to being human, its relationship to the subject of the magazine: theological anthropology in the context of preaching. Would you help our listeners understand the connection you want them to understand there? >>Mike Pasquarello: Yes. Bonhoeffer was very classical in his confession of the person and work of Jesus Christ. That he is one person, he is fully divine, and he is fully human. And that in Christ humanity has been reconciled to God. And so we don�t fully know who we are apart from Jesus Christ. And God reveals himself to us in Christ. But he reveals ourselves to us in Christ as well. Now, one of the things that Bonhoeffer was so concerned about was that liberal theology as well as the thinking of the Nazis tended to be very abstract, and it wasn�t concrete. And preaching that is not concrete is unable to address the lived experience of people as disciples of Jesus Christ. And he saw that as the primary task of the preacher, who is a pastor and a theologian at the same time. And in the interpretation of scripture preaching, then, gives voice to the Word of God who speaks through the human words of the preacher. Humanity, then, is shaped according to God�s will. Now, the key in this, Dr. Sweeney, is that Bonhoeffer did not believe that God�s will is to make us religious or spiritual. But God�s will is to make us fully human in Jesus Christ. To restore us and renew us in the image of God that we see fully in the incarnate and the crucified and risen Christ. There�s the connection between Christology and preaching and the life of the Church. And that was at the center of his teaching and training of preachers. >>Kristen Padilla: I want to continue this talking about Christology. You wrote in your article this line, �The preacher�s calling is to follow after the gracious movement of the world and the whole scriptural witness to Christ,� which is beautiful. There seems to be two tendencies in preaching, especially when it comes to preaching the Old Testament. One of those tendencies is, or would be to not preach Christ unless the text is clearly, so to speak, pointing to Jesus, or it�s a text that we find quoted in the gospels or the epistles about Jesus. Or, the other tendency is to jump to Christ so quickly that we don�t talk about the context and what�s going on with that particular passage of scripture. Can you tease out what you mean in your statement and what it means to preach Christ in all of scripture? >>Mike Pasquarello: Yeah, sure. It was very important for Bonhoeffer that we follow after the Word. One of the things that it means is that a preacher is a disciple. Discipleship is not a topic or a theme that a preacher can talk about in a sermon series. But discipleship is the way of Jesus Christ to which we are all called. And the way of Jesus Christ is laid out for us from Genesis to Revelation. Now, Bonhoeffer begins with the incarnation, that the eternal Word of God became human. And that he is the center of reality. And everything else must be seen in light of who he is. That would include the Old Testament and the New Testament. That all of scripture bears witness to, points us towards, and leads us to Christ. And he is its source and he is its goal as the living Word. Now, Bonhoeffer didn�t want to get caught up on methodology, which he saw as one of the weaknesses of his training at the University of Berlin. That method overcame or overtook the more important matter of attentive listening, of prayerful receptivity, of humbly opening ourselves to receive what God speaks and what God gives in scripture, which reveals his Word to us. And that�s what he saw as the primary calling of a pastor who is a preacher. >>Doug Sweeney: I mentioned at the top of the show that you begin your article in Beeson magazine by saying you�re attempted to lament the state of preaching in our time. But your article really does culminate with a powerful, very positive vision for Christian preaching in our time. I know we�ve got a lot of preachers listening to us right now. Would you summarize for them what this vision is? >>Mike Pasquarello: Oh, I�d be happy to. I do end on a word of hope, which I believe as preachers we should because our hope is in the gospel and our hope rests in God who will be faithful to his promises. That�s certainly what sustained Bonhoeffer through a very, very dark, dark time. Let me read to you something that he said in the first sermon he preached when he became a pastor of two German speaking congregations in London. This was in 1935. He left Berlin, went to London, this is before he was called to be the leader and the director of the underground seminary at Finkenwalde. In the course of this sermon he says to the people about preaching. �Not our word, but God�s Word. Yet even so God�s Word speaking through ours. This is what makes a sermon something unique in all the world. So completely different from any kind of speech. When a preacher opens his or her Bible and interprets the Word of God, a mystery takes place. A miracle.� Now, that would be the word I would give, in fact, that I do try to give to my students in preaching classes; that it is God�s Word that speaks through our words as we pay careful and faithful attention to the Word that is revealed in scripture. And the fact that anyone hears God�s voice addressing them personally is a miracle with God�s grace. We get to participate in that. We can�t control it. We can�t make it happen. It�s not dependent upon us. But it does require that we give to it all that we have, all that we receive, all that we know, and all that we�ve learned, and God honors his promises and takes us up and makes us instruments of his living Word that speaks the very power of salvation. It�s an amazing thing. I think it�s a reason today for us to have hope in the work as preachers. >>Doug Sweeney: Amen. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, we want to end this conversation with a question about preaching during a pandemic. This is a unique time in our history and there�s much discussion today about what ministry and preaching should and does look like in light of covid19. What wisdom, advice, or encouragement would you give to those listening in pastoral ministry about preaching at this time? >>Mike Pasquarello: Yeah, that�s a very important question, Kristen. If I may refer to Bonhoeffer one more time, I found it interesting in studying his sermons. We have about 125 that have survived that we have manuscripts for. And he was a manuscript preacher. He wrote meticulous manuscripts. He was very careful with his use of words in order to be faithful to the Word. But it�s interesting that during the dark time of the war in the Nazi years he speaks about it very little in his sermons. One reason is that he didn�t want to call undue attention to the congregations where he was preaching, because they were under surveillance by the Gestapo and there were Gestapo spies sitting in the congregation listening to him. I think the other reason, though, is theological and it has to do with the power of the gospel. He didn�t want to give too much power to Nazis and what they were doing and what they were trying to accomplish. Because to speak of them too much, just as to speak of the coronavirus too much detracts or turns our attention away from the astonishing good news of the gospel of God and Jesus Christ. Now, that doesn�t mean we don�t pay attention to the needs and the hurts and the pain and the loss and the grief of people. As Bonhoeffer would say, to preach the gospel must be done concretely in a particular time, place, and circumstance. But the gospel must not yield and it must not give way to something other than itself as the very center and heart of the world, of reality, our life, and our faith. And so I would encourage preachers, as they address the very real needs of people that they do not in any way underestimate or sell short the power of the gospel and all its life-giving capacity. >>Doug Sweeney: Amen. What wise words with which to conclude. You have been listening to the Reverend Dr. Michael Pasquarello III, Methodist Chair of Divinity, and Director of the Robert Smith Jr. Preaching Institute, here at Beeson Divinity School. He is a beloved colleague, a good friend, he is the author of �Dietrich Bonhoeffer and the Theology of Preaching Life,� published by Baylor University Press. We are so grateful to you, Mike, for joining us today, and we are grateful to all our listeners for tuning in as well. We love you. We�re praying for you. Please stay healthy. Stay in touch. Goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You�ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.