Beeson Podcast, Episode 487 Dr. Kevin Vanhoozer March 10, 2020 Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. Doug Sweeney: Welcome to today's Beeson podcast. I am Doug Sweeney, your host, here with my cohost Kristen Padilla. Today in the studio, we have a longtime friend of mine, Kevin J. Vanhoozer. Dr Vanhoozer and I have known one another for 30 years, since the time when he was a young teacher of mine in seminary. For the past 20 years, we have been friends and colleagues, mostly on the faculty of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Chicago. Doug Sweeney: Our offices used to be across the hall from each other. We've gone on dozens of double dates with our wives, Wilma and Sylvie. We've been in each other's homes. We pray for one another's families. We brainstorm with one another about our research and writing and common teaching ministries. In short, Kevin is one of my very best friends in all the world and so it is a great honor for me that he is at Beeson with us today, having given the address at my installation service in Hodges Chapel this morning. Doug Sweeney: Kristen will introduce Kevin in a formal way in a moment. For now, I want our listeners to know how dear he is to me and what an important evangelical theologian he is as well. In fact, in my opinion, Kevin is one of the most important evangelicalism thinkers at work today and I am eager for all of you to benefit from his wisdom. Before we do, let me offer a brief announcement about next week's William E. Conger, Jr. preaching lectures. Doug Sweeney: This year's lecture is Dr. Jared Al Contra, another former colleague of mine, who now teaches at Baylor's Truett Seminary. Dr. Al Contra is the Paul W. Powell professor of preaching there and he will preach a sermon here in our chapel next Tuesday entitled, Preaching God in the Wild. He will then lecture on Wednesday and Thursday, March 17 and 18 in Hodges Chapel at 11 o'clock in the morning. Doug Sweeney: The first of these two lectures is called, The God Who Sees and Calls Us In The Wild and the second is titled, The God Who Saves and Sins Us In The Wild. The lectures are free. They are open to all. They're very titles are intriguing and we hope you'll join us on campus next week to hear them. All right. Kristen, would you please tell us just a little bit more now about today's guest, Dr. Vanhoozer. Kristen Padilla: Hello, everyone. As Doug said, we are grateful to have Dr. Kevin Vanhoozer with us on today's show. Dr. Vanhoozer has been a guest on the show before when Dr. George was host on November 5th, 2018, episode 417. So after today's conversation, we recommend that you go back and listen to that episode. Dr Vanhoozer is Research Professor of Systematic Theology at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Deerfield, Illinois. He has a prolific and award winning author and serves both the Attic Academy and the church in a number of ways. And so much more could be said, Kevin, but we are eager to jump into today's conversation and hear from you. So welcome to the Beeson podcast. Kevin Vanhoozer: Thank you for your hospitality. Kristen Padilla: Well, let's begin with another introduction. This time a more personal one. We would love to hear how you came to faith in Jesus Christ, your faith journey and what drew you to study and teach theology. Kevin Vanhoozer: Oh thanks. I came to faith at a young age. My parents were nominal Christians, but like good nominal Christians, they thought I should go to Sunday school. I did. I listened, I paid attention and I came home with questions. Not is there a meeting in this text, at least not yet, but the regular questions children ask about Bible stories. Kevin Vanhoozer: My mother couldn't answer them and so she began reading the Bible for herself, eventually came to faith and then was very concerned that we find a Bible believing church. So that lesson, finding a Bible believing whatever has stayed with me. So I remember growing up in a family where my mother would read Bible stories while I was playing with toy castles and catapults, which in retrospect is only fitting because I now think of myself as a Knight of faith. Kevin Vanhoozer: And as studying theology, I really wanted to be a New Testament scholar like my mentor and hero, Robert Gundry, who was a family friend and internationally renowned New Testament scholar. So I went to Westmont to study with him. He had actually, when I was a high school student, recommended that I read James Stewart's book, A Man In Christ, which was a study of Pauline theology. And I read that as a 17 year old and the scales fell off my eyes. There was a different dimension to the world of Bible stories that I discovered. Kevin Vanhoozer: So I went to Westmont to become a New Testament theologian, like Bob Gundry. Only to discover when I was a junior I think, that he said, I don't think you should be a New Testament scholar. And it wasn't because he was trying to get rid of me, at least I don't think he was. But strategically, I think he took the measure of me, knew that I liked the big picture, using my imagination to make connections. Kevin Vanhoozer: And he said, "Evangelical church needs systematic theologians." So at first, begrudgingly, I set out then to do what he suggested, study systematic theology. The other fact I should mention though is that after college, I did a short term stint as a missionary and that experience, trying to evangelize people in secular France, raised a whole new set of questions for me that who has since then always made me very sensitive to the role culture plays, either in speaking or listening to people teach the gospel. Doug Sweeney: Kevin, you're here at Beeson this week primarily because we asked you if you'd be willing to give the address at my installation as the Dean of Beeson Divinity School, the new Dean here at Beeson. And occasions like this, raise all kinds of conversations in our community about theological education, evangelicalism, theological education. Doug Sweeney: You're a former teacher of mine, whose thought for many years about the state of evangelical theological education and I know has some opinions about where we ought to be headed. Could you give our listeners just a little feel, it's a tough thing to talk about briefly, but what's your take on the state of evangelical theological education today and do you have any advice for people like me about where we ought to be moving? Kevin Vanhoozer: Yeah, it's a challenging question. It's always easy to feel like you're living through a crisis that no one else has faced. And I think there are always been crises. I think we always have to be alert and attentive to what's going on. But it is true today, there do seem to be new challenges there. There's the demise of denominationalism, the economics of tuition. There's the desire to stay near home, in order to do ministry and maybe a bit of residual anti-intellectualism. Kevin Vanhoozer: And all of these things have put the traditional three or four year MDiv degree on the endangered species list. Also, we have new technologies that make information available to us very easily. So seminaries need to show that they're more than temples of the knowledge changers. We need to return to an older model I think, where the emphasis is definitely on ministering and forming the whole person, the head and the heart. Kevin Vanhoozer: We're not simply in the business of licensing professionals. I think we need to return to a wisdom based model that gives people knowledge, yes. But also tells them how to put it into their daily lives, so that it makes a difference. I'd also like to see seminary education focused on what it means to read the Bible well and to interpret the Bible practically. That is to live oneself into an out of the world of the text. Kevin Vanhoozer: And I do think all the departments in a seminary are necessary to do that. I don't think biblical studies is necessarily in the one position to do that. I think we need all the disciplines to train our students to read the Bible well, to hear the word of God for the church, yesterday and today. We need all the departments to do that and I am encouraged by signs of interdisciplinary cooperation as well as, what I think is a new attentiveness to culture. Kevin Vanhoozer: As I mentioned, I was a missionary, I was not necessarily trained to understand culture as a theology major in college, but I think today's seminaries are much more attentive to the role culture plays in ministry. Kristen Padilla: You serve, as we said, at Trinity, which describes itself as a broadly evangelical seminary community, united around the gospel of the life, death, resurrection, and return of Christ Jesus. At Beeson, we are very similar. So what is the value of this kind of interdenominational education, especially as we think of the future of the church in societies like ours, that are becoming more secular and post-Christian? Kevin Vanhoozer: Yes, I do see us as sister institutions, partners in the gospel, both witnessing to the deep unity of the faith amidst the secondary, but still important differences in diversity. There is a time, I think to argue about the motive, Christ's presence in the Lord's supper, but there's also a time to recognize that there are more pressing issues because of our surrounding secular culture. Kevin Vanhoozer: I do think that theology has always been occasional, that is the New Testament documents were written to specific audiences. So we do need to be very attentive to what's happening today. And as I've said, the challenge is to work together to help our students achieve wisdom. So why an interdenominational school? I think people have to learn to cope with people who disagree with them. and it's easier to do that when they're in the classroom, either lecturing or sitting next to you. Kevin Vanhoozer: That also is wisdom. Knowing when it's important to draw the line and have a firm conviction and when you can say, I believe strongly about this, but I see your point and it's valuable that you're making it. It's a little bit like just in general, people need to be more multicultural than we used to be. We're mingling, with those who are different. So I think our students need to learn how to live with people who disagree with them about doctrines and other things. Kevin Vanhoozer: I also think an interdenominational, evangelical seminary, may be the best place to learn how to be a Catholic evangelical, without being too contextual. I do think new context help us see things in the texts that earlier generations may not have seen, but there is a danger in our society I think, of becoming too identified with those who share your context. Kevin Vanhoozer: And again, it helps to be in an interdenominational school because you will meet people who come from different contexts with different passions. I do think places like Trinity and Beeson are important. We've got at our school, doctoral students from all over the world and what I'm hoping we're teaching our students is how to be faithful to the gospel in their local contexts, in ways that express the Catholicity of the church. And again, I think being in an interdenominational school, especially with people from other cultures, is the best way to learn to do that. Doug Sweeney: One of the things we work hard on here at Beeson, Dr. Vanhoozer, is this spiritual formation of our students. We despise the old jokes that substitute the word cemetery for seminary. We want our students to grow in holiness while they're here. We want them to become more like Jesus. We want them to become more godly as they learn about God. And we know, this is something you've been thinking about for a while as well. Do you have some advice for us as seminary people or pastors and church leaders or even just advice for regular Christians about their spiritual formation or about discipling others for spiritual growth? Kevin Vanhoozer: Let me first affirm the concern. It is a concern of mine to a helmet. Thielicke wrote a little book called, A Little Exercise for Young Theologians. And I think he's on target when he talks about the danger of studying theology and mastering the concepts, but not having an experience of the subject matter of theology. That's a Pyrrhic victory. It's empty knowledge. Kevin Vanhoozer: I'm also concerned about the influence of contemporary culture on the habits, attitudes, and sensitivities of young adults. So speaking of spiritual formation, I strongly believe that the surrounding prevailing culture is a powerful means of spiritual formation, that is already happening. And so we have to be aware of this as seminaries, so that we can make sure that we call it out, name it for what it is, and then influence people's minds and hearts, so that the gospel will take them captive and not some other story that promises success and fulfillment. Kevin Vanhoozer: So spiritual formation should be trying to respond to Paul's exhortation to set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on the earth. And that doesn't mean that spirituality is other worldliness, as if people don't know how to change a light bulb. But I think it does mean becoming more like Christ where we are in our particular context, here on earth, now. Kevin Vanhoozer: What does that look like to live like Christ now? That's also part of spiritual formation. So to answer your question, I suggest a two pronged approach. First, I do think it helps to tell students to open their eyes to the fact that they are already being spiritually formed. We have to know our culture and what is forming us. But then second, we have to counter it. And one way to do that is to participate in chapel and formation times where people are living out together in bodily ways, the story of the gospel. Kevin Vanhoozer: Because we're always living out somebody's story, we need to live out together the story of the gospel. I'm a great believer in taking every imagination captive to the gospel. So I think Charles Taylor is onto something when he talks about the secular imaginary, which it's not part of the official curriculum, but it really has a powerful way of shaping individuals and social lives. So we need to make sure people don't simply read about the story of scripture. We need to make sure they take an active part and that they're continuing it. Kristen Padilla: For a number of different reasons, many seminaries are shifting their delivery so that online education has become a big part of theological training. So what are your thoughts on this? Kevin Vanhoozer: Get the behind me. Look, I'm not anti innovation or technology. I benefit from having access to sources that I wouldn't otherwise have access to. And I understand why online education is so popular these days. It reflects so many things our contemporary culture values, convenience and affordability. It also caters to individualism. With online courses, you can take a course whenever you want, how often you want. So that's why I think it's very popular. Kevin Vanhoozer: But I don't myself think that popularity is necessarily an index for quality or excellence and I do have some concerns. I recognize that if you simply look at numbers, online education appears to be wildly successful. But as a pedagogue teacher, I have to ask, what are people learning? What kind of learning is taking place? Are people learning simply information? Can you teach wisdom via online courses? Kevin Vanhoozer: It's a real question I have. And [inaudible] because my own view is that the goal of a theological education is not simply amassing information and acquiring knowledge, but becoming a wise person and information is impersonal. I mean, you really don't need to be around other people to get information, but I think wisdom is personal. I think it's the kind of thing you only learn from other people and often in the context of community. So I'm hard pressed to think of an adequate substitute for embodied communal learning. Doug Sweeney: Kevin, I know that you have been involved in the Center for Pastor Theologians for quite a long time now, as have I. And Kristin and I were reminded as we were preparing for this podcast, about a piece you wrote for the Gospel Coalition a while back that was adapted from the book you've written called, The Pastor as Public Theologian, in which you said that pastors, pastor theologians should be reading more fiction. We find that intriguing. We agree completely, but we'd love to hear you say more about that. Why is it important that pastors read fiction and what kinds of advice do you have for pastors in this respect? Kevin Vanhoozer: Yes. Well a pastor, I believe is a theologian, who works with people. So you have to understand the Bible, yes and that's what we help people do in seminaries, but you also have to learn about people, the people to whom you're ministering. People are often very different from the pastors that minister to them. Sometimes pastors are sent to places of which they have no experience, a city person going to the country, a country person going to the city. Kevin Vanhoozer: Understanding other people is hard, but I think fiction helps us to learn how to understand those who are different from us. CS Lewis has a quote where he says, "In reading great literature, I become a thousand men and yet remain myself." He's talking about all the vicarious experiences he's had through learning fiction and I think this would also apply not simply to learning about different individuals, but learning about different cultures. Kevin Vanhoozer: When I am invited to speak at a particular place, I try to read some fiction that will give me an insight into the spirit or culture or the people of that place. I learned this, by the way, before I got married because my wife, who is French, was a little apprehensive about what would happen when I first met her parents. And so she suggested to me that I read some books by a French author named Marcel Ponyo, which he does a brilliant job of getting to the heart of villagers in this part of France where my wife's parents lived. Kevin Vanhoozer: So I did, I read these books and so when I met her parents, I felt like I knew them already because this author was so accurate in getting me into their quirks, their habits, their habitual ways of responding, their way of thinking. And consequently, I think I was able to get on much better with them and I was able to marry their daughter. So that was a success. Doug Sweeney: That's good. Kevin Vanhoozer: Yeah. So I do try to read a few books of any place I go to. And that may be, I mean, I think sometimes this may be one way of following Paul's example when he says, "I become all things to all people." Like Lewis, he's become a thousand people to try to understand a few, in order to minister effectively to them. Kevin Vanhoozer: Listeners who want to go deeper than this, who want concrete suggestions would be advised to look at Cornelius Plantinga's book, Reading for Preaching. He has some additional reasons for why pastors should read fiction. He says, "You should read poetry to tune your ear to the language." The language of which of course, is the main tool for those who minister the word. He thinks reading biography is good for acquiring good judgment and learning about human character. But above all, reading fiction gives insight into the human condition. Kevin Vanhoozer: And just one example I can give from experience, I've read a book by Jeffrey Eugenides, called Middlesex. And I wasn't quite sure what it was about. I thought it might be about jolly old England and village life. No, halfway through, the narrator changes sex, changes gender. And it was almost as though having lived that life, I was going through a gender change. That's the title, Middlesex and it was a very powerful way of helping me understand just a bit more of what it's like to be someone who's confused about gender. That's just one example, but there are many. Kristen Padilla: While we're on the topic of books, for those who are listening who have not had theological training but are interested in Christian theology, besides yours, which books would you recommend that they read to help them grow as believers and in their wanting to go deeper into theology? And then secondly, you are a very productive author and there may be those who want to read some of your books. And so which book or books would you recommend that they begin with of yours? Kevin Vanhoozer: Okay, well to start with the general authors for people who want to get into theology more. I'm always bad at questions like this because there's so many. But if I had to pick one, my pick for today is going to be Oliver O'Donovan's, Begotten or Made. Oliver O'Donovan is an English ethical theologian and the title. Begotten or Made is taken from the Apostle's creed. Kevin Vanhoozer: It was a reference to the fact that Jesus is the son of God eternal and that's good old Trinitarian theology and the book has a very good explanation of that. But what he does in the book is relate that question about the doctrine of the Trinity to a very contemporary question, concerning sexual ethics and reproductive ethics and bioethics. Kevin Vanhoozer: In other words, his question in the book is should we think in terms of making children, say through in vitro fertilization or other techniques? And the way he brings to bear an ancient doctrine like the Trinity on a very contemporary live issue for us here in the west today, I thought was just brilliant. It's theology at its best. Bringing scripture and doctrine to bear on contemporary problems in a very helpful way. That should get you excited about theology. Kevin Vanhoozer: I've also recommended the classics. It's hard to think of someone doing better than reading Calvin's institutes or one of Luther's essays, Bondage of the Will, even. To try to understand how one can go deeper in seeking to understand the word of God and how it fits everything together. And then a user-friendly suggestion from another former student and friend of your Dean, Dan Trier has just come out with a book called, Evangelicalism Theology and Introduction, which I think is very fair minded and he makes sure to be hospitable to all the great Protestant traditions and so I would recommend that. Kevin Vanhoozer: As far as my own books go, I can recommend two that are safe for beginners. One would be, Faith Speaking Understanding, where I talk about the Christian life in terms of an actor living in to the story of Jesus and theology is necessary to understand that story better and our identity. And then a book called, Hearers and Doers, which is about the importance of becoming a disciple, a doer and not simply a hearer. Doug Sweeney: Dr. Vanhoozer, as we mentioned at the top of the show, you are here this week mainly because you agreed to give the installation address at the service at which I was installed as the second Dean of Beeson earlier today. We want to get a recording of that address up on our website so people can listen to it for themselves. But for now, would you mind telling our listeners just very briefly, what it was that you sat in that message today? Kevin Vanhoozer: Yes. It picks up on some of the themes we've already talked about. I should say, my text was Philippians 1:27-2:3, where Paul is exhorting his readers, whom he loves at Philippi, to live lives worthy of the gospel. And my message explored how that applied to academics who are citizens of the academy, you might say, as well as citizens of the gospel. Kevin Vanhoozer: And I think Paul unpacks what it means to live in a manner worthy of the gospel in chapter two, where he encourages the Philippians to be of the same mind and to do nothing from selfish ambition, but in humility to count others as more significant than themselves. And I think that translates powerfully into the lives of seminary professors who may be too tempted to think too much of their own discipline, their own way of doing their discipline, their denominational differences and so on. Kevin Vanhoozer: So I was encouraging my listeners to think that a wisdom worthy of the gospel requires all the disciplines at all the denominations working in tandem, so that together we hear what God is saying to us in his word. Now my hope and prayer for students at Beeson is that they will get understanding, that they'll give understanding to others by going the second mile, trying to make sure they understand them and that they will become understanding. That is the kind of people who will be able to mature in Christ. Kristen Padilla: Last question, you have known Dean Sweeney for many years and have seen God's work in his life. It's already been said that you two are dear friends. So how do you think God will bless us through him as our Dean? And what do you think Dean Sweeney will seek to inculcate in the Beeson community? Kevin Vanhoozer: Well, I'm thrilled for Beeson that Dean Sweeney is here. He's one of my favorite scholars saints, my favorite church historians, so I'll return that compliment. He combines immense learning with an immense love for the church. One of our mutual friends, Dan Trier, when I told him I was coming to speak at the installation, wrote this. Kevin Vanhoozer: He said, "When I think of Doug Sweeney, Philippians four comes to mind. He's a historian and a theologian who focuses his mind on excellent things and lives accordingly. And at the same time, his gentleness is evident to all." So I think you're going to see that. I think you're going to see him work tirelessly here at Beeson, not to make his own name great, but to make sure that Beeson is the best it can be and that it's the kind of community where students can learn Christ and mature as disciples. Kevin Vanhoozer: He knows to work with other people. I've seen him in administrative roles myself, even when he is dealing with people who don't come from the same confessional tradition. After all, he was for years an edifying presence on Trinity's campus, despite being for most of the time the sole Lutheran. That's not easy. Kevin Vanhoozer: And in the farewell speech I gave to him at Trinity, I thanked him not only for all the times he had saved me from making hasty generalizations about church history, but for his Christ like presence. And for the life of me, I could not conjure up any unpleasant memories. I think your Dean embodies Colossians 4:6, "Let your speech always be gracious." So my hope and prayer and conviction is that he will be for Beeson, an example of intellectual virtue and godly ambition that everybody can imitate. Doug Sweeney: Well, it is a little bit difficult and embarrassing to follow that up with a conclusion to this broadcast, but please pray for me, listeners, that I can live up to at least part of that description. Please pray for Beeson Divinity School, as we move into this next season of our seminary life. Please continue to pray for Dr. George and Denise as they finish this sabbatical year and then join us again next year. Doug Sweeney: Thank you very much for joining us. You have been listening to one of my best friends in the whole world, Dr. Kevin Vanhoozer. It's a great honor for me that he was here today, speaking at my installation service. He is Research Professor of Theology at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. I commend his work to you wholeheartedly and I thank you for joining us. Goodbye for now. Kristen Padilla: You've been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquerillo. Our cohost are Doug Sweeney and myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at beesondivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.