Beeson Podcast, Episode 464 Cort and Abby Gatliff, Reagan Keith Oct. 1, 2019 Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School, on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I'm Doug Sweeney, the Dean of Beeson Divinity School, and I'm here today with my cohost Kristen Padilla. Even though we're recording this conversation in September, you're probably hearing it on the day or shortly after the day of its release, the first day of October. We are amazed at how quickly the fall semester is going by. We began a series in September focused on the ways God worked among our students this past summer during cross-cultural ministry practicums or CCMPs, as we call them here for short. We spoke with Kyle Young and Russell Mann about their CCMPs in Latin America. Then we spoke with Samantha Parsons about her work at the Yakima Indian reservation in Washington state. Now our final guests in this series are three students Cort and Abby Gatliff, and Reagan Keith. We've invited them to the show today to share about their experience working in rural church ministry in Vermont, but before we jump into our conversation with these wonderful students, I want to let you know of several upcoming events at Beeson this month. The first exciting event is our Go Global Emphasis Week, taking place October 8 through 10, with special guests Dr. Miriam Adeney. Dr. Adeney is an anthropologist, missiologist, teacher about missions, professor, and author, whose passions include global Christianity and preparing workers for cross cultural living. She will preach during community worship in Hodges Chapel on Tuesday, October 8, and will lecture during the lunch hour on Wednesday, October 9. We also will have representatives from various missions agencies with us to talk to students and guests about missions opportunities around the world. There is no need to RSVP except for the luncheon lecture on October 9. You can find more information on our website, beesondivinity.com/events. The second event is for prospective students. Preview Day is on October 22nd. Our first Preview Day took place on September 20th and we loved meeting a big group of students and their guests on that day. On October 22nd our own Dr. Robert Smith Jr., will preach in chapel and prospects will have the opportunity to meet with faculty students to tour our campus, sit in on classes and more. If you know of a prospective student, this is the best way to experience a day in the life of Beeson Divinity School. You or they can register for this on our website. Again, beesondivinity.com/previewday. Finally, at the end of this month, October 29 and 30. We will welcome Dr. Kelly Capek as our guests for the reformation heritage lectures. Dr. Capek is professor of theological studies at Covenant College. He will preach in chapel on October 29 at 11:00 AM. He will deliver the two reformation heritage lectures on Wednesday, October 30 at 11 and 2:30 PM. Then in addition to the reformation heritage lectures, he will give a special lecture on preaching for the Robert Smith Jr. Preaching Institute on Tuesday afternoon. All these lectures are free and open to the public. We hope to see you there and you can find all of these events on our website. Again, beesondivinity.com/events. Now, without any further ado, Kristen, would you please introduce today's guests. Kristen Padilla: Welcome everyone to the Beeson Podcast. We have with us a Reagan Keith. He is an MDiv of student right here from Birmingham, Alabama and we have Cort and Abby Gatliff. They are married and are both MDiv students and they're also both from Memphis, Tennessee. So I'm not going to do long introductions today because we want to hear from you about who you are, where you're from, anything that you'd like to share about your faith in Jesus Christ and your journey to Beeson. Who wants to begin? Reagan Keith: I can. So I'm Reagan. Keith, I was born and raised here in Homewood, Alabama. I have a mom, dad, and sister. We've been here for a long time. Regular attenders at Dawson Memorial Baptist church. I came to faith in Christ at a Christian summer camp called Centrifuge that was middle school. Came back was taught what baptism means. Was baptized at Dawson brought me to Beeson was I looked at a couple of schools. I applied to one, Beeson had the most rigorous application, only one that demanded an essay. So I thought, you know what, the others aren't due for awhile. Let's see if the one that I worked the hardest for works out. At this time, I was also talking with another student, Russell Mann, and we were talking ... We both applied to Beeson and we're waiting to hear and I just remember we came for Preview Day. We fell in love with it. Lyle Dorset was the teacher and he mirrored our mentor that we both had at that time and we said if we can, we'd love to be here. Kristen Padilla: Another good reason to come to Preview Day. Nice to have you hear Reagan. Cort? Cort Gatliff: Yeah, I'm Cort Gatliff. I'm from Memphis, Tennessee. I am a pastor's kid so I actually sort of moved around a lot growing up, but I ended up in Memphis and considered Memphis home. I grew up in the church since my dad was a pastor. So sort of my whole life I was in church every Sunday, youth group, but I wouldn't say it was until probably high school that I sort of started reading and exploring the Christian faith on my own. I had some wonderful mentors who are pouring into my life at the time, and I'd say that's when I really became a Christian and also started to feel a call to ministry vocationally. And that's when seminary popped up on my radar, and I went to the University of Tennessee and was really involved in a ministry there called RUF and again that's when I decided I wanted to go to seminary after that. And yeah. Abby Gatliff: Hi, I'm Abby. I also grew up in a Christian home in Memphis, Tennessee. I didn't realize what it meant to have my own personal faith until probably middle school. And once I sort of began getting involved in youth group, realized what it meant to truly follow Christ. And I think back on that time with great fondness because I'm so thankful for youth leaders that helped me identify a call to ministry even though I couldn't put words to it at the time. I began to feel called to the local church ministry. I went to Samford for undergrad and Cort and I got married after college. We met in our youth group actually, and lived a little bit of life before deciding it was time for Cort to apply for seminary. And during that process I remember being so jealous looking at his class list and sort of realizing that I think God was calling me as well, but I wanted to make sure that it was something he was calling me to and that I wasn't just piggybacking off of him arbitrarily. So I began to pray through it and allowed myself to continue in the workplace for another year while Cort was doing his first year before I began the application process and ended up joining his second year, my first year and it was the most wonderful experience. So I'm very glad that I waited. It's been fun to be here together, but I've loved making this experience my own. Doug Sweeney: All three of you are MDiv students here at Beeson, which means you're required in as part of the curriculum to do not only an internship at a church in the area, but also on top of that across cultural internship or as we call them here at Beeson practicum. Why did the three of you choose this particular practicum, the one in Vermont, and what were you expecting as you went into it? Reagan, let's start with you. Reagan Keith: Sure. So I chose this particular CCMP because twofold reasons. One was just practicality for health reasons. I'm probably never going to be able to do overseas missions for any significant period of time. And so I thought it would be great to experience that, but that's probably not a reality for a longterm somewhere else. So I thought, but I can pretty much go anywhere in the U.S. and then two, Alabama is a largely rural place. Birmingham is kind of an exception. There's Huntsville and Montgomery as well, but much of Alabama is actually rural. And so thinking through what would be a very practical way to gain experience in places that I might actually be one day serving in. Doug Sweeney: How about the Gatliff's? Cort Gatliff: We have both spent a fairly significant amount of time overseas in various capacities, whether other mission trips and we lived in France for a year. So I was really drawn to the idea of experiencing a cross cultural experience in America. We both grew up in the suburbs very much our whole lives. And so the idea of getting a cross cultural experience that's totally different then what we're used to, but also still staying in America was really fascinating to me and I didn't really have a lot of expectations. I was sort of just going in willing to learn, excited to see something new and just see a whole different part of the country. Abby Gatliff: Yeah. Just to add onto that, Cort had grown up in new England a little bit when he was younger and I had not spent much time there, so I felt like it was something that was a pull to us as a couple. And I was just curious about sort of exploring that region a little bit more. Kristen Padilla: How did this CCMP converge with your call to ministry and in what ways to God use this experience in Vermont to perhaps shape your call to ministry going forward? Cort Gatliff: It actually, the timing of it was really funny. Abby and I both been in Hebrew all summer and then we had a month off before school started and we're also going to start new jobs as soon as school started. New jobs at a church here in town. And so we were pretty tired from Hebrew all summer. So we had mixed feelings about spending two weeks of our time off in Vermont doing ministry. But it ended up just being the perfect way to ease into our new job at this church here in Birmingham. It was far more restful than we imagined. It was spiritually edifying. We got to learn a lot about pastoral ministry. So it was really the perfect timing for us as we began this new job to step into a pastoral role for two weeks. It was phenomenal preparation. I thought. Abby Gatliff: I think also for us personally, it provided a lot of opportunity for us to discuss our collective call to ministry. The job that we're starting, we're both pastoral interns and so being in a space, learning from Jason McConnell who was the pastor in Vermont. He asked us a lot of questions about ministry and really got us thinking in ways that allowed us to have conversations at night together. Once, we were able to debrief the day. And so that was a really formative time for our marriage really and for our call to ministry, working through that together. Doug Sweeney: Wonderful. Abby and Reagan, I am told that both of you had opportunities to preach this summer. What was that like and did the cross cultural component of this ministry experience affect the way you thought about the preaching assignment you were given? Reagan Keith: Yes, it did affect the way we thought about preaching. So for me, this was a fun and exciting treat. I had never actually preached before until going on the CCMP and the encouraging and challenging aspect was Jason had a lot of trust in us as decent divinity students. That you are being equipped to do the things and I know you are at Beeson to be able to do what I'm asking you to do. I don't have the time to prepare these sorts of things this week. Since, he was chaperoning us around the whole time and so he gave us really ... I'm calling you up, this is your time, which was very ... I mean just an honor and a privilege, but tailoring, thinking through some of the books that I've actually had read for preaching class on contextualizing things. While we were there, we went and saw many different people in their context. And so thinking through like the farming community is there, the dairy farmers, like that's the large portion of what they do. So connecting. Like there's a Catholic background that many of them are coming from to become Protestants in this area. So thinking through like, how do you incorporate these things in particular ways that's faithful to scripture but also applicable to your real life. That was really fun to think through when I was preaching of, "Oh man, my host home, I know that they would get this." Because they were farmers, and their family was farmers. So when I talk about Abraham and the generations before him, you know, the livestock farmers like they're going to get that. And I was like because they know that, that's what that is. So that was just really cool, and a privilege to be able to do. Abby Gatliff: I would agree with that as well. I had prepared a devotional that I had done before. I'm not really expecting to preach. In fact, there were four slots for preaching while we were up there and there were five people on the trip and I just sort of assumed that I would let everyone else do it. And it's hard to explain other than I really believe God called me to preach. It was also my first time preaching in a Sunday morning setting. And so I was really grateful for Jason communicating very clearly to me throughout the week how important it was for his church and for him to have a woman in the pulpit as much as possible. And I believe that that sort of helped me get in there. But once I was working on this sermon that I had sort of already started, I remember laughing because I quoted from Matthew's Gospel talking about John the Baptist using the illustration of Jesus separating the wheat from the chaff. And I was so excited because Jason had told us that farmer images really do work well with that community. And I was thinking how cool it was that so much of the Bible really does communicate itself well to the rural farming community in ways that perhaps we in the suburbs miss. That might need a little bit more explanation. And so that was a really cool example. And I'd also say Jason did give us a lecture on how to preach to a rural community before we did this. So that was very helpful as well. He did talk about different ways that contextualizing would be helpful for this community, which we were very grateful for. Kristen Padilla: I have a two part question and Cort maybe you can answer these questions for us and then Reagan and Abby, you can jump in if you would like. The first part, my first question really deals with, we've been talking about this, CCMP was in rural Vermont, but we haven't really talked about Jason McConnell's ministry. I believe he has two churches that he pastors and so could you describe his ministry and what you all did? And then the second part to that is the differences and surprises for you, Cort and others between rural Vermont church ministry and church ministry and the suburbs or even in an urban setting. Cort Gatliff: Yeah, I'll try to explain sort of the path that took him to lead these two churches. So there were a lot of polity and denominational issues involved. But so basically there was in this town of Franklin, there were two historic churches in the main town area and at one point, several decades ago, I believe they decided to join together. One was a Methodist and one was a congregationalist church. And again, this just sort of the realities of rural ministry. The town was so small and they were literally side by side that they decided to just become one church. And then so now that's one church with two buildings. And so they spend half the year in one building and then every six months they switch over to the other building. And then in addition to that one about probably five miles away from these two churches that are now one church, there's another church that is also a historic church in the area, and that's an East Franklin as opposed to Franklin. And he is the pastor of that church as well. So they're two separate churches, different budgets, different elder boards, but they share one pastor. And so Sunday morning it's a little bit of a circus because he will preach at one and then immediately get in his car and drive over to other and have the second service. But the churches cooperate very well, and they get along. So there's sort of like one big family but two individual churches and they make it very clear that they are different churches. Kristen Padilla: The second part of the first question is what did you all do in particular on the CCMP? You mentioned preaching already and then as a followup to that question, what surprised you about rural church ministry in particular? Cort Gatliff: This trip was basically observational trip to learn about his ministry. So he had planned two full weeks of activities and lectures and chances to meet with people in the community. So I mean we were up at 8:00 AM every day and didn't get back to our host homes til eight or nine at night. And so each day looked a little bit different. But basically we would be meeting with various people throughout the community who were members of his church. So we visited several dairy farms owned by members of his church. We visited with the principal of the local school. That's right next to the church and just learned about sort of the challenges of running an elementary school in a rural context where they may not have as many resources as other schools. We visited the local nursing home and led two worship services there. So we also got to do devotionals with some of the elderly in the community. We visited two of the towns nearby. We just sort of got to walk around the towns and see what these towns looked like. They're obviously much smaller than towns that were used to. And so that was really neat to see and we learned about the history of the area and I think I was surprised by the way ... I think one of the main differences of rural and suburban ministry is the people are very much used to seeing Jason, their pastor out in the community rather than always in his office or at the church. So he would just drop by people's homes without calling them to let them know beforehand. And they were excited to see him. Whereas there are very few people where I would feel comfortable in the suburbs, just showing up on their stoop one day and saying, "Let's have coffee." Whereas that was very much the norm for him and a lot of his ministry was sort of shaped by this very relational, less programmatic, more relational than what I'm used to. Abby Gatliff: And just to add another observation, Jason was very involved in the community as a leader. So he as the pastor was sort of seen on the same playing field as the principal of the elementary school or the fire department. He was the chaplain at the local nursing home that was down the street. He had served as a volunteer EMT. So he sort of saw his ministry, not just to the church itself, but to the community at large. It was a very much a parish church ministry format, which I think, in the South when we've got a church or several on every corner, we are not familiar with that model. As much as that was sort of their situation. He was the pastor for that community. Reagan Keith: I think something that surprised me specific to his ministry was just how well he knew his congregation, but how well he had also studied the dynamics within his own church context. Multiple times, he talked about one of the buildings was painted. The interior was pink and he said, "I don't like that pink at all and I want to change it, but I also know that the matriarchs, the people who have been in this church since 40, 50, 60 years are the ones who decided to paint it pink." And so just his wisdom in dealing with this congregation and knowing them in a way like, that's not really something I need to fight for in this scenario. It was surprising in that it was like I've never heard somebody talk and relate to their congregation that way and thinking through like, Oh, this is like ... You can be really wise with how you deal with the people in your context. Doug Sweeney: That's great. You three obviously learned a lot about cross-cultural ministry this summer and ministry in general. Beyond that. Would you say there are any particular ways in which the Lord stirred your heart, expanded your vision. For what he's doing in the world, kind of changed the way you think about the kind of ministry you want to practice moving forward? Abby Gatliff: The first thing that comes to mind for me is how much Jason placed an emphasis on when pastors come into a new church, oftentimes we feel this need and burden to be seen as strong leaders, CEO type figures, and a lot of times that can end up doing damage if our vision that we have for the church as pastors does not match or meet the needs of the actual church that exists or the community that's there. And so, one thing that Jason challenged me personally with is, do you coming into this new job that Cort and I are starting. He sort of challenged us to always ask, "Okay, is this a personal preference that I have as a leader or is this a genuine need that should be addressed?" And that has sort of floored me. I can't stop thinking about it or talking to people about it. But entering into a new church setting where I am not as familiar with the people. I think it gave both Cort and I the opportunity to sort of slow down and before we come in as these young chipper, pastoral interns, we have taken the time to sit and meet with most of the ... As many people as we can that are involved with the community to get a feel for it rather than coming in and saying, "Okay, this is my preference for how I do things." And that has been I think very helpful to us as we have started out in this new role. Reagan Keith: For me, I think it was real providential moment and then being in the host home of just very godly people that took us in and realizing and seeing flushed out what everyday faith looks like in a context. That's the same faith in the same person that I have. I had not really thought through that. And it's hard to have your eyes open when you're in the bubble at Beeson, but really to be reminded like we went to a town of 1400 people and here there are these two churches and we're staying with host homes of people who are also Christians and they have blessed us by praying for us more than we could know. And I drove up to Vermont, which was 23 hours, so 23 hours away. There are people in the U.S., that had been praying for us all summer long for the experience that we had. And the Lord showed up. That was just amazing. Like and they said afterwards we're going to keep praying for you guys. And I was like, the picture of the church, it's everywhere. So that was a beautiful thing to think through and to think like Paul like, I remember you guys in my prayers now because how can I not. Cort Gatliff: I think it also expanded my vision for our own life and ministry. I think it's easy to sort of limit ourselves sometimes into where we think God may be calling us, but I don't know if we're called to new England necessarily, but it really was encouraging just to remember wherever he places us, he's going to be faithful to the work that we do there. And he could really call us anywhere and it would be wonderful. Doug Sweeney: Many thanks to Cort and Abby Gatliff and Reagan Keith for coming and sharing with us about the ways in which the Lord used them and taught them about ministry, particularly cross-cultural rural ministry over the course of the summer. Many thanks to Beeson alumnus Dr. Jason McConnell, who shepherded their experience in Vermont this summer. We are so grateful to God for partners of Beeson Divinity School. Who do ministry with us and help us, help our students get ready for what the Lord has in store for them. Thank you very much for being with us. Goodbye for now. Kristen Padilla: You've been listening to the Beeson Podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of The Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquerilla, our co hosts, are Doug Sweeney and myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson Podcast at beesondivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.