Beeson Podcast, Episode 397
Doug Webster
June 19, 2018

Announcer:	Welcome to the Beeson Podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. Now your host, Timothy George. 
Timothy George:	Welcome to today's Beeson Podcast. "God who at sundry times and in diverse manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things by whom also he made the worlds." Those are the opening two verses of the epistle to the Hebrews. We're going to have a conversation about Hebrews today with my colleague, Professor Doug Webster. Doug Webster has written a new book, Preaching Hebrews: The End of Religion and the Faithfulness to the End. Great title. Doug, welcome to the Beeson Podcast.
Doug Webster:	Thank you, Timothy.
Timothy George:	I think of you as, well, you teach pastoral theology here. You've been a pastor for a big chunk of your life. You still are very involved in pastoral ministry in all kinds of ways. One of the things that's marked your ministry is a commitment to the exposition of Scripture. That shows in your preaching. Every time I hear you preach, but also in your writing. Hebrews is your most recent book, but you've written a number of other books. Tells us just some of those you've worked through.
Doug Webster:	Well since coming to Beeson, I have felt a great concern to develop pastoral commentaries, a bridge between the more technical, exegetical commentaries that scholars do, but not a popularizing of the biblical book. So a serious consideration of the biblical book. I've done works in 1 Peter and Ephesians, The Christ letter and in Revelation, Follow the Lamb, and now in Hebrews, Preaching Hebrews.
Timothy George:	You didn't mention John, but haven't you also written on John?
Doug Webster:	I've done a three book devotional series on the Upper Room discourse.
Timothy George:	That's it.
Doug Webster:	Yeah, John 13 through 17. 
Timothy George:	Wonderful stuff, all of it. Well, what led you to Hebrews, except the fact that it's in the canon of Scripture?
Doug Webster:	It's in the canon and it's in the canon as a bit of a challenge, because I think it's a book that tends to be avoided, and having done the biblical books around it, 1 Peter, James, and Hebrews, I thought maybe I should tackle the book of Hebrews. I also got interested in it because I came to learn that I think, and many scholars would agree, that it's a sermon. From beginning to end, it's a 60 minute sermon that was delivered in the context of a worshiping household of faith, and it was understood by the congregation—which to me is intriguing, because we make Hebrews out to be a very complex, difficult, mysterious book. But I think there's a, really flow to the argument, so that people can hear it and understand it. So, “What does Hebrews teach us about expositional preaching?” also become an intriguing factor for me. 
Timothy George:	We mentioned a minute ago the canonicity. I mean it was questioned in the early church whether Hebrews should be in the canon. One of the reasons: it doesn't bear the name of any apostle. Talk a little bit about that controverted question of the authorship of Hebrews.
Doug Webster:	Well, a Puritan pastor felt that that may have been intentional, so as to let us know that there was another fine, deep thinker in the early church. Paul wasn't the only one, and there's been a wide variety of people that have been suggested: Barnabas, Luke. Apollos probably is the one that appeals to me the most because he certainly, with his Alexandrian background, and with his deep understanding of Scripture, gives us sort of the full package for doing Hebrews. Deep understanding of the Old Testament, familiar with Greek and Hellenistic poetry and philosophy, and the ability to write in ways that do not strike us as similar to the apostle Paul.
Timothy George:	Yeah. I've even heard that maybe a female author, Priscilla has been mentioned, I think. What do you think about that?
Doug Webster:	Well, there is a male pronoun that's given at the end of the book of Hebrews that may slant that away from Priscilla. I know my daughter, who's a pastor, likes that idea, too.
Timothy George:	Well, it's possible, but we don't want to make that a test of fellowship, do we?
Doug Webster:	Sure.
Timothy George:	Beyond these kind of historical, introductory questions, you've burrowed into the meat of Hebrews. If you had to express in just a few sentences what's it about, what would you say?
Doug Webster:	 A tour de force on the supremacy of Jesus Christ, and that everything is now eclipsed by the coming of Christ. Not to, in any way, diminish the significance of that prior revelation, but to gather it up and to pronounce that it is indeed fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It's a better covenant, it's a better sacrifice, it's a better priesthood. In every respect, it's better because of Jesus Christ.
Timothy George:	When I was a young preacher trying to read the Bible and preach it a little bit, that's the word that I attached to Hebrews: better. You've gone through several of those “betters.” A better Melchizedek, a better Moses, a better covenant, a better tabernacle. All this is better in Hebrews, better than what? Better than the Old Testament? Better than the history of Israel? In some ways, do you see in this “better” argument about Hebrews, the argument Hebrews itself makes, that this is a pretext for anti-Semitism?
Doug Webster:	No, not at all. The letter itself, the sermon itself would refute that, because it shows the value of understanding and preaching the Old Testament. In fact, I taught a course here at Beeson on preaching Christ from Genesis to Revelation. Of all the New Testament books, Hebrews shows best, I think, the apostolic hermeneutic. How should you interpret the Old Testament? 
	The argument that this was written to Jewish Christians may be somewhat modified by the fact that I think Gentiles and Jews alike, who were drawn to Christ, needed to know the Old Testament. There's nothing Marcionite about this biblical book. Nothing refuting the strong Jewish roots of the Christian faith. 
Timothy George:	You can't read Hebrews without being reminded of that revelation in the Old Testament because he's quoting from it. He's referring to it again and again and giving a kind of interpretation. I once heard someone say that the New Testament is a midrash on the Old Testament. It is a way of reading the Old Testament in the light of Jesus Christ, in his full revelation in the incarnation, without disparaging the genuineness of that revelation. Therefore it's an argument in a way against Marcionism, against Marcion, who wanted to split apart the canon and do away with the Old Testament, eliminate it completely. You can't read Hebrews and be a Marcionite, I don't think.
Doug Webster:	All the New Testament apostles were Old Testament theologians.
Timothy George:	Well put. 
Doug Webster:	There's probably, next to the book of Revelation, there is more quotation from the Old Testament, than any other New Testament book, in Hebrews.
Timothy George:	Yeah. Now, in your book Preaching Hebrews, you talk about the structure, the texture of Hebrews. Can you tell us a little bit what you mean by that?
Doug Webster:	There's a weave of exposition and exhortation. In some commentaries, you'll actually read where the exhortation paragraph is perceived as a parenthesis, as if it's just interjected into the text. I don't see it that way. I see as it a spiraling intensification, where exposition and exhortation ... The reason for the exposition is the exhortation, and these two work together. There's always a pastoral aim, never an abstract theological aim. Always a pastoral aim of what in your life you're going to do with this profound truth of the supremacy of Christ.
	And there's great concern on the author of Hebrews, or the preacher or the pastor, that Christians were beginning to drift away from a deep appreciation of this great salvation. That's his concern. He gives a lot of theological depth to a very practical pastoral concern, to stay tuned, to stay attentive to this great truth.
Timothy George:	There are all these warnings in Hebrews, also, about falling away. Apparently this, the apostasy, this was a very important threat, wasn't it, in reality, for these early Christians, many of whom were facing persecution. So falling away was something he wanted to give them some guard against, if he could, in writing this letter, don't you think?
Doug Webster:	The indication would be that the church has not yet suffered state-sponsored persecution, but what they have suffered is maybe something that is akin to the diminishment, or the marginalization, or the distancing of a culture from their commitment to Jesus Christ. Something that we may also experience. I think that's also a reason for the timeliness of the book in our own culture, is that we may feel marginalized. Well, so then, how do you respond? I think the sermon of Hebrews is a response to that. It's written with that concern in mind, for a church that may be suffering from indifference and apathy and distancing from the faith. An easy recourse would be to turn back to their religious roots.
Timothy George:	You know, it's often said that this must have been an early New Testament writing because there are all those references to the sacrifices that seem to be still in place when you read through Hebrews in a very common sense kind of way. Do you think it was a pre-70 AD sort of book? 
Doug Webster:	I think so. We really don't know whether it was written to Jerusalem or Rome. I guess my guess would be Rome, and to a Jewish Christian congregation predominantly, but with a number of Gentiles in that congregation.
Timothy George:	Yeah. And of course, when we think about the book, not only the context in which it was written and initially received by whomever it was who wrote it, but also its being incorporated over a long struggle and debate into the canon of Scripture. It assumes a life of its own. It becomes a word of witness to the Christian community long after 70 AD, long after 135 AD, long after Christianity itself has been declared a licit religion in the fourth century. So it continues to have a life of its own.
Doug Webster:	Back to your question on apostasy, and the kind of very sharp warning passages in the book. Some have argued that there's different audiences that are being addressed in this book. Christians who just needed inspiration and encouragement. Nominal Christians that really had not committed themselves to Christ but believed, and actual unbelievers who were yet part of the congregation.
	I don't see that. I see the pastor addressing the whole church and going as deep and as strict and as shockingly clear as he could on the threat of turning away from the faith. But then, just as he would get to the place, maybe, of judging them, he'll back off and then he'll say, "But this is impossible with you, because you have already experienced the Holy Spirit. You've already experienced the reality of the resurrection of Jesus Christ." He'll push it all the way. He'll take the warning as far as it can go, and then he'll remind them of their faith in him.
Timothy George:	You know, the closing chapter of Hebrews ... It has 13 chapters as we've divided it in our Bibles. In chapter 13, as so often is the case I think in the New Testament letters, is a section of exhortation. It says, begins, "Let brotherly love continue." It's about love in the community. Marriage is brought in. Then there's this great verse 8, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever." Could you comment on that verse?
Doug Webster:	Well, when you think about it, we've had 12 chapters of in-depth exhortation and exposition woven together, and then he gets to the kind of material that most of our preaching centers on in just one chapter. Which he's very concise and very brief, and he talks about leadership, worship and mission, in a kind of chiastic structure. He does leadership, worship, and mission and then comes back to mission, worship, and leadership. 
	In each one of those three areas, he'll center on Jesus Christ. What you have picked out in verse 8, “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever,” he, if we look at the passage closely, Christ is mentioned in relationship to each one of those areas, which he just throws out with a sentence, but for all three, Jesus Christ is central. In a way, if you want a capstone verse statement for the whole book, verse 8 is it. “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.” A great text too for motivating preaching Christ from Genesis to Revelation. He's there throughout.
Timothy George:	That verse could be a capstone verse for the whole Bible, maybe, in a way. It's a wonderful text and woven into the paraenesis part of this great book. You know, this book, Hebrews, is very important to us here at Beeson Divinity School. And in our chapel, Hodges Chapel, the beautiful dome that we see every time we come in, the great cloud of witnesses around it, that's kind of based on Hebrews 11 and 12, and especially the story of Abraham and Sarah, who went out not knowing where they were going, looking for a city with foundations whose builder and maker was God. We wanted to understand that we're a part of that journey. It continues still with Jesus Christ, as he's called in Hebrews 12:1, the captain of our faith, the one who leads us on into the future. 
	Every time we come to chapel to worship here, I'm reminded of this particular passage of Scripture and how important it is for the whole Christian life, for pilgrimage as one of the great themes of the Christian life. It was from Hebrews 11 that we get the term “pilgrims,” the Pilgrim Fathers had this text in mind. They went out, knowing they were strangers and pilgrims, as the King James Version says, in this world, and lifted their eyes to heaven, their dearer country. What about that theme of pilgrimage and that great list of the heroes of faith in Hebrews 11, leading up to the tremendous opening verses of chapter 12?
Doug Webster:	Timothy, do you like watching movie trailers?
Timothy George:	No. 
Doug Webster:	Oh. 
Timothy George:	But I've heard of them.
Doug Webster:	Well, in a way, if—of course this would be anachronistic—but the author of Hebrews has taken a lesson from the style of movie trailers, because of the way he uses the Old Testament. There is a momentum there. One of the, I think dangers of preaching Hebrews is that you come upon a particular Old Testament reference, let's say the Melchizedek or Abraham from Hebrews 11, and then the pastor today burrows down into that subject, and now is going to try to exhaustively teach his congregation about Melchizedek or about Abraham. Well, that is not what the pastor had in mind as he wrote this epistle.
	What he had in mind as he preached this sermon, as he wrote this letter was to sort of take it all in, with a momentum, with a kind of fast pace. Sometimes when you've seen a movie trailer, what for three minutes and you feel, “Well, I don't need to see the movie now because I've seen the whole thing.” Well, I think there's a little bit of that. Not that you don't need to understand, study the Old Testament, but he has kept that momentum pressed so that you get something of the whole Old Testament in capsule form, bringing forth the thrust of what it was pointing to in the first place, Jesus Christ.
Timothy George:	Yeah. Well you're not only a fabulous preacher. You're also a very good writer. You've written an excellent book, Preaching Hebrews. I want to ask you about the subtitle, because it's provocative. "The end of religion and faithfulness to the end." What's that about?
Doug Webster:	Well it picks up, too, with Jesus' sermon on the end in Matthew 24 and 25, when he left the temple and the disciples were very impressed with the stones of the temple and tried to draw his attention to that. Jesus said, you know, “Not one stone is going to be left on top of another,” as he spoke of that AD 70 destruction of the temple. In a way, the book of Hebrews, while making a case for the unfolding of God's unfolding revelation, is also saying that the sacrificial system is over. That one and only necessary sacrifice has been made by Jesus Christ. Religion ends.
	That which is structured in order to give us form, in order to bring before us the reality of God and to instruct us in a pedagogy of waiting for that fulfillment, that's now done. It's over. So, it's a really radical move, and I think this is what the pastor was trying to impress upon this believing community. You can't go back. You can't go back to circumcision. You can't go back to a sacrificial system. You can't go back to special days. You can't go back to this. You can't go back to that. That's over now. It's Jesus Christ—fixing your eyes on him, the author and finisher of your faith.
Timothy George:	Yeah. When I read that, the end of religion, what came to my mind was the statement of Bonhoeffer that we all know, “religion-less Christianity,” drawing on Barth and his severe critique of religion, seeing it as a substitute, in a sense, for the reality of faith, for the reality of Jesus Christ. I think that maybe speaks to us, and maybe Hebrews speaks to us in a special way today, because we live in this kind of age in which religion, at least in its traditional formulaic way, doesn't work anymore, for so many, many people in our world today. The end of religion. So we have to have something that has more life, more reality, more substance to it, than religion was able to convey. What do you think about that?
Doug Webster:	Well, you know the book of James says that religion, good religion, is taking care of the poor and the widows. So there is a place for using that term, religion.
Timothy George:	Of course, Calvin wrote a whole book on the Institutes of the Christian Religion. Used it in a very positive way.
Doug Webster:	But in the book of Hebrews, the idea of religion I think is best defined as those self-justifying means by which to try to impress God and try to give yourself a sense of grace and security. It's that which is being denied in the book. Those kind of self-justifying structures and regimens and rituals that are no longer salvific. They're no longer helpful. They've been eclipsed by the power of Christ.
Timothy George:	Well, if you're speaking to a pastor—and you are speaking to lots of pastors who listen to this podcast—and they're thinking about teaching the book of Hebrews, I recommend they get your book. Are there any other sources, resources?
Doug Webster:	F.F. Bruce's commentary on Hebrews is excellent. N.T. Wright has a very readable, small commentary on Hebrews that I think is very insightful and helpful. William Lane has an excellent commentary on Hebrews as well. The most readable for me, technically, was F.F. Bruce and O'Brien. 
Timothy George:	Yeah. O'Brien's an Australian scholar who has written on Hebrews, so there's a lot of good literature there, but I recommend that you get this book by Douglas D. Webster, my colleague and friend. He's Professor of Pastoral Theology and Preaching here at Beeson Divinity School. He's a Presbyterian, but he also is a teaching pastor at the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham. Widely used and appreciated as a minister of the gospel and dear friend and colleague. Thank you for this conversation and thank you for focusing on Hebrews as a form of preaching today.
Doug Webster:	Thanks so much. 
Announcer:	You've been listening to the Beeson Podcast with host Timothy George. You can subscribe to the Beeson Podcast at our website, beesondivinity.com. Beeson Divinity School is an interdenominational, evangelical divinity school training men and women in the service of Jesus Christ. We pray that this podcast will aid and encourage your work, and we hope that you will listen to each upcoming edition of the Beeson Podcast.