Beeson Podcast, Episode 420 Joshua Sauñe November 27 2018 Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. Now your host, Timothy George. Timothy George: Welcome to today's Beeson Podcast. Well, you know this semester at Beeson Divinity School, we are pursuing the theme of martyrdom. As we thought about the martyrs of the past, those who have given their lives for Jesus Christ and we are reminded of the martyrs every time we walk into Hodges Chapel here at Beeson because six of them are memorialized in statuary. One of those is the person we're going to hear about, his brother, the martyr that he's going to speak about is Romulo Saune. He was a Bible translator with the Quechua Indians and we're going to hear a message, a powerful message, inspirational, from his own brother, Joshua Saune. Dr. Smith? Robert Smith Jr: This is a testimonial about the martyrdom of Romulo Saune, his brother, taken from the text Romans 8:35-39, which is a favorite text of his brother Romulo. He feels that his brother's life is a narrative of Romans chapter 8. It's christological focused, Dean George. He says, in thinking about his brother, who was killed September 15, 1992, and another one of his brothers died in 1992 as a martyr and then his grandfather in 1989. He says, "Many times I stop in the place where they martyred. I don't stop to worship them. God, I pray, give me the courage to serve as they served." Robert Smith Jr: Christologically, he understands what his grandfather, who died at 99 years of age, understood. That is, the only way we can change our people and their heart is through Jesus Christ. So it's christologically focused. He wants to honor his ancestors. He gives us a history of his people, the struggles that they had, the Spaniards that came and considered them as being less than animals, but the greatest picture we have in this testimonial text is a picture of God. Robert Smith Jr: I find it moving that he would say concerning other Christians, he says, "If that is your God, who is so small, I don't want that kind of God." He wants a big robust God. It's a picture of family, of family that had suffered greatly as a result of their testimony. It's a picture of persecution. The shining part of the Communist movement that came and wanted to kill all the pastors and leaders because they felt that is we kill the leaders, then the people will follow us. Robert Smith Jr: Then it's ultimately a picture of his own understanding of Providence. That his brother Romulo would say to him, it's not time for you to return to Peru. That's what kept him from being killed, because had he gone, he would have lost his life, which kept him to say, that God is not finished with us. Therefore, we are immortal until his work is done. I find this a tremendous picture of God, of Christ, and of our testimony that we give to others in terms of what we are willing to give for Christ as we serve him. Timothy George: You know, Joshua Saune still continues to serve with his people in South America, in the country of Peru, and when I listen to this sermon, I sort of get the feel, this is Christianity on the edge, and this is serious stuff to give your life for Jesus Christ even at the point of laying it down as his brother Romulo did. Well let's go to Hodges Chapel for what was a very moving presentation by Joshua Saune about the martyrdom of his own brother, Romulo Saune. I think you'll be inspired by this. Joshua Sauñe: ¿Cómo están esta mañana, hermanos y hermanas? How are you my brothers and sisters? I heard somewhere that the language of heaven is going to be English, because Americans cannot learn other languages. I praise the Lord for this opportunity because he's so mighty. He's the Creator of heaven and earth, and he create us also, man and women. Joshua Sauñe: I'm privileged to be here. I didn't know where was Alabama. I didn't know where was Birmingham, but I praise the Lord that here, there is my family, because we believe in Jesus Christ. I come not as a greatest speaker. Probably I'm the least among you, among the brethren, but God is doing miracles among my people, the Quechua people of Peru. I thank God for this opportunity, for this university especially, Beeson Divinity School for inviting me. It's an honor for me to be here. I am a simple Quechua pastor of the Andes of Peru. Joshua Sauñe: What a privilege that you have also, a statue of my brother. Many times I stop in the place where they were martyred, but I don't stop to worship them, but I stop to pray to God and ask him, Lord give me the same courage that I might serve you also, even if I have to give my life for you, like them. I think that's why you have this statue over here. Joshua Sauñe: You have read the passage in Romans 8. I would like to read it again. This was a passage, a favorite passage of my brother Romulo, and I would like to read it, not to remind me only, but to remind you also in whom we believe. 8:35, "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword? As it is written, for your sake we are killed all day long. We are counted as sheep for the slaughter. Yet in all these things we are more than conquers through him who love us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor powers nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Joshua Sauñe: My brothers and sisters, the Quechua people of the Andes of Peru, according to your books, we are the largest Indian tribe in the Western Hemisphere. Just only in Peru we are more than 13 million Quechuas. In all South America, we are more than 34 million Quechuas. Probably you heard our history, the history of the Incas, and today, I wear the clothes of my people because I want you to know that Christ cares and he died for us also. Joshua Sauñe: In 1532 Christianity arrived to my country. The Spaniards came from Spain and landed to the shores of Peru. My people knew that they were coming, but also we remember in those times that we had prophesies that God one day will send people to tell us about the truth of him. So we let him come to the top of the mountains. Sometimes I read your books and I say, "And they say how come so few of them conquer a mighty nation?" We let them come because we wanted to hear what they were bringing to us. Joshua Sauñe: But they arrived to [inaudible 00:09:28], but they didn't have no intention of sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ with us. But their intention was gold and silver and earthly possessions. They prepare a plan to capture the Inca [inaudible 00:09:47]. So the plan was Balboa, they went to him with the word of God, and he say to him, "This is the word of God. This is God." Joshua Sauñe: But he didn't explain to him what was the word of God, but he said to him, "This is God," but it was a trick. So Balboa hold the Bible and he open it and he look. He couldn't understand anything. Then he shake, he couldn't hear anything, so he said to Valverde, the priest, "This is your God? If this is your God, your God must be so small, because my God, he's the Creator of heaven and earth. And he's the Creator of everything that our eyes can see. If this is your God, I don't want your God." And he throw the Bible. Joshua Sauñe: This is exactly what the Spaniards were waiting for. So Valverde cry out, "My brothers, to the heathens, to the worshipers of Satan," and the canons and the horses and they still came out. The slaughter began in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Joshua Sauñe: My brothers and sisters, I heard from the mouth of my grandfather Justiniano Quicana, until 1950, he never accept Christianity in his life. My family was never a Catholic or a Christian because Christians were our enemies. My grandfather say when he was young, when he heard the Christians were coming up to the hills, they will escape because Christians, they were coming to kill them. Joshua Sauñe: So that's our encounter with Christianity, but praise the Lord, praise the Lord there was men and women also that understood the true gospel of Jesus Christ and they came to our regions. In 1950, they came preaching the true gospel of Jesus Christ and my grandfather, Justiniano accepted Jesus Christ. Because he understood that Christ was not only for the Spaniards or for the people in America or in Europe, but Christ died for us also. Joshua Sauñe: That by his blood, we are also accepted. So my brothers and sisters, soon after my brother Romulo was born. He was born to a Christian family. So I'm blessed to tell you today, that I am a third generation of believer like my brother Romulo. There is so much suffering and atrocities done to my people through the years. So much persecutions, until 1968, we were never recognized as people. We are less than animals. Joshua Sauñe: The Spanish lords had the right to kill us or to give us life. But my brothers and sister, God never abandoned us. My grandfather, Justiniano follow Christ until 1989. In the 1980s there was a group called Shining Path. This is a communist movement. When they understood about the strength of the Christians among the Quechuas, they say we must kill the pastors and leaders. If we can kill them, we can penetrate to the people. We can make them understand our ideology and they can follow us. Joshua Sauñe: So systematically, they start killing. My grandfather, Justiniano, was among the first ones to be killed, but God never abandoned him. Many times he say to him, "Escape. They're coming to kill you." And he escaped. But one Sunday he was standing before his people and he says, "My brothers, next Sunday I'm not going to be here because the Lord has called me home." The next day, sure enough the Shining Path came and they took him to judge him, judge him for what? For preaching the Word of God. On the way to the place, my grandfather stood and he said to them, "My sons, the only way we can change our country, the only way we can change the heart of our people is through Jesus Christ, and you must accept Jesus Christ." Joshua Sauñe: I was at the beginning of last month, with my grandmother, and she's still alive. She's 99 years old. I was asking her the details and she said to me, "Your grandfather asked the terrorists to accept Jesus Christ, but they couldn't understand. They start killing him right there, so he went to the ground, but from the ground he was still telling my sons, the only way to change your country is through Jesus Christ. There is no other way." They couldn't understand and they opened his mouth and they cut his tongue out. Joshua Sauñe: But not content with that, they pull his eyes out, and they opened his chest and he pulled his heart, and his heart was still pumping, for his Lord and his people. But he's not the only one. I remember my brother Romulo. Since young, his life was devoted to serve the Lord and serve his people. He was my teacher of Sunday School every Sunday. He had so much love for his people. He translated the Bible because he understood the only way our people could understand the word of God is through reading it. Took him 14 years, with Wycliffe. Joshua Sauñe: But not content only to translating the Bible in the written language, he also tape the Bible because he say, "Many of my people like my grandmother, my mother, they cannot read the Word of God, but they need to hear the Word of God." So it took him many years to tape the whole Bible into tape. Because of that you have now in the United States the organization called Hosanna, because he understood the only way we can change our country, our people is through the word of our Lord Jesus Christ, is through the Bible. Joshua Sauñe: I remember he came in May of 1992, to our home in Arizona. I was in Arizona then. He said to me, "Joshua, we must go back to our people," because at the time, our churches had been bombed. Our pastors and leaders were killed. Many congregations like this were wiped out in one day. We're serving the Lord in caves, under the trees. We never sleep in one place twice. Even the little kids, two years old, if the Shining Path were passing, they would learn to be quiet and not to say anything. Joshua Sauñe: He said to me, "Joshua, we need to go back to Peru." So we make a plan. So September was the time that we were going to go to see the pastors and leaders. But for some reason, he called me and he says, "Joshua, I don't think it's time for you to come home. Stay in United States." We're going to go and see the pastors and leaders on the Quechua congregation. There'll be time for you to come back to Peru. I couldn't argue with him because he was my older brother, and in my tradition, in my culture, my older brother is my father also, and he knows what he's saying. Joshua Sauñe: Secretly in my heart, I ache because I wanted to see also my people. But the 6th of September, there was a call and they say, "Your brothers have been killed yesterday." I couldn't understand how a mighty God can allow such a thing. I cried to him, Lord where were you? Where were your angels? Probably they were hiding behind the mountains as cowards, watching your servants to be slaughtered. Joshua Sauñe: My mother and father, they were two yards away from them when they were lined up to be killed. So I say, Lord if you are not going to do anything for my people, isn't it enough for my people to die and to suffer for hundreds of years? So I say, if you are not going to do it, I'm going to go and I'm going to fight for my people, and I went to Peru. Joshua Sauñe: I was thinking my mother probably, she's half dead because the oldest one and the youngest one were killed that day. But my mother was waiting for me in the airport, and usually we wear dark clothes when somebody dies. She was wearing her beautiful bright colored clothes and she said to me, "Joshua there is no time of crying or grief. It is a time of rejoicing because your brothers had reached heaven already." Joshua Sauñe: All who might think about those words, many scholars of the Bible and theologians, many times they get tangled and cannot understand that our reality is eternity. Many times we are tangled in the dark of eternity and we are not even realize that our life belongs to him in eternity. But my mother understood that day and she say, "Your brothers are in heaven." And she say, "You must come to the church. You must address to the people." But my desire was to tell them, "My brothers and sisters let us rise in arms. Let us fight." How long is our people going to suffer? Joshua Sauñe: But the words from my mouth came, our fight is not against flesh and blood. God the Spirit of the Lord changed my heart that moment when I was standing like now, looking at the body of my brothers, my uncles, my cousins, my nephews. There were 11 of them in the church. For the first time in my life, I understood that the Shining Path, the militants are not my enemies. God is asking me to forgive them because they are people that needs Jesus Christ. Joshua Sauñe: My enemy is Satan. Your enemy is Satan. I understood for the first time, if I must fight Satan, the only way is with the word of God. I had left my wife crying in Arizona and my only son, Naconi. But I call from Peru and I say I'm coming home. I prepare myself in the word of God and we went back in 1995. Joshua Sauñe: The legacy of Romulo has not ended. It is still alive. It is still changing lives and one of those lives is me. God changed my life. Many times we think in the circumstances, many times we think in the tears and the blood, in the sufferings, in the persecutions, but many times we forgot the plan of God. I say, I tell to my pastors and leaders, the Quechuas, God is in control of everything. Even the pains and the sufferings he can turn it into good, because that's his plan. Joshua Sauñe: My brothers and sisters, but the question is, where are we going? These persecutions and sufferings, tribulations, nakedness, has been planned by God because he wants us to mature, because he wants us to be better Christians, but many times our saying is, Lord, where are you? How many times for silly things, many times we rather watch TV instead of studying the word of God. Many times we say, "Me forgive others? You have to be kidding." That's too hard. Joshua Sauñe: But my brothers and sisters, the Lord call us to forgive. You know my passion was to bring the Shining Path, the one that killed my brothers, the ones that killed my people, to the feet of Christ. Many times I had done that. By dozens and hundreds, I brought them to the feet of Christ. Because my love for my God has to be my love for my neighbor also. They need to hear the word of God. Maybe I'm getting old now, but you know what's my passion today? My passion is Jesus Christ. Joshua Sauñe: My brothers and sisters, tonight you have come, probably to hear a Quechua man speaking about the life of Romulo. What can I say about his life? I can only say one thing. He believe and he follow our Lord Jesus Christ with all his life. He stayed in Peru, when many missionaries from different denomination of different organization left the Andes of Peru and jokingly sometimes I say they left because they're afraid to go to heaven. Joshua Sauñe: Many times we are afraid to go to heaven. But he stayed because he understood and you know what was his saying he used to say? We are immortals until the day and the hour and the moment the Lord will say, it's time for you to come home. Bullets will pass us. Will never hit us, but the day the Lord says it's time for you to come home, the bullet will hit us in the heart. That's exactly how he give his life, with a bullet in his heart. Joshua Sauñe: My brothers and sisters, but they are not dead. They are not finished. He is in heaven. One day, we're going to go to the same place where he is also. But again the question is, where are you going? When I come to America, I feel like I am in heaven already. When I come to this chapel this morning, I thought for a moment that I was in heaven. But my brothers and sisters, the resources and the blessings that God has given to us and given to this country is for one purpose. It's to spread the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ in this continent. Joshua Sauñe: God had given you so great of resources. Do you know, you're not going to take your beautiful car, your beautiful home, this beautiful church to heaven? One day it will burn good. That's exactly what's going to happen. You're the church. The Bible says that. But my brothers and sisters, the blessings and the resources that God has given to you, is to spread this gospel, and you are Bible scholars. You know this. Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and the ends of the world. Where was his Jerusalem? [inaudible 00:28:32]. Was Peru. Was South America. Joshua Sauñe: Where is my Jerusalem? It's [inaudible 00:28:41]. Where is my Judea? It's the other tribal groups that are in Peru. My Samaria? And someday I tell my pastors and leaders, one day from this Quechua church, we're going to reach all the way to the real Jerusalem in Israel. If all of us, we can be united and think that way, we can evangelize the world in no time. Joshua Sauñe: My brothers and sisters, where are you going? When there is still time, let us change and transform our lives according to the Bible. Many times when we come to United States I feel sad because my Christian brethren are not different from the secular people. They are not different. There is so much sin in our homes. There is so much adultery going on, fornication, divorce. Joshua Sauñe: The Bible tells us that we must be a holy nation. We must have pure heart before him because he is holy. Liars will not inherit the kingdom of God. So if today you came to meet a Quechua pastor from Peru, yes, still is persecution in my country. Yes, there is sufferings in my country. Yes there is no money in my country, but I think spiritually we are far, we are far from this country. Joshua Sauñe: So let us help each other. My brothers and sisters, my brother Romulo, died the 5th of September of 1992. He give his life, not for me, not for the Quechua people of Peru, but for you, for today. Because you are also my family. So pray for us. Pray for the Quechua people of Peru. Pray for the Quechua church that he began in Peru. We are more than 700 churches right now and going strong. The hand of God is doing miracles among my people. I can tell you about the tears about the blood, about the sufferings but the hand of God is among my people. Joshua Sauñe: If he didn't die I wouldn't be here today. So you know God is in control of everything. So my brothers and sisters pray so the Quechua people can have churches. Many time our churches has been dynamite and we're trying to build it. $500 will roof a church. I don't know if $500 will make a square meter in United States of a church. But with $500 you can roof a church. Joshua Sauñe: We don't have Bibles. You are blessed. When I come to your churches, when I come to your home, I find Bibles in different, no not denomination. In different translations. There is Bible for men, Bible for women, Bible for children, Bible for every circumstance. If I am happy I get the red Bible. If I am sad I get the blue Bible. But you are a blessed country. God has blessed you so much. Use it to further the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ. Joshua Sauñe: We don't have Bibles. My brother Romulo translated the Bible in our language. But many of the pastors don't even have a Bible in their hands. So how are they going to preach? How are they going to teach? Pray so the Lord can bless us with Bibles. My brothers and sisters, you have so much materials. Teaching materials in this country. We have just so few. Help us. Joshua Sauñe: I can translate it into Quechua. The Lord is raising a mighty nation among the Quechua people of Peru. Pray for us. Pray for me and my family. Pray for my children. In 2003, May 17, the Shining Path finally tried to blow my home. They put 10 dynamites under our bedroom. One explode at 4:00 in the morning. I say to my wife, I think that's so close to us. And when I open the window, the smoke was coming out, and I went downstairs to see, maybe somebody's playing in our home. Joshua Sauñe: But when I went outside, there's so much police there. They say who are you? Who are you? So I said to the police, I am a pastor. They said, no. Who are you? I say I am a pastor. But I didn't understand why they are telling all these things. So I went outside and I look. My door and there was a package of dynamites laying there and there was a flag of the Shining Path hanging in my door. Then I understood the Shining Path tried to kill us that morning. Joshua Sauñe: But my brothers and sisters, we are still in Peru, in [Ayacultcha 00:35:22]. Because we understand that God is in control of everything. The polices have come only when dynamite explode so I said I don't care. You tell your scientists to explain that, but one thing I know. That my God is all powerful and mighty. If he wants I will go to heaven. So the Lord is still keeping us in Ayacucho. So pray for us. Joshua Sauñe: Pray for me especially because the Shining Path thinks if we can only kill Joshua, we can have the whole country, the Quechua people for us. It's not only me. It's the mighty host of heaven, that are around us, and your prayers. That's why the Lord is sparing us, but maybe someday, you'll hear also our brother Joshua has left for heaven, but don't cry. But rejoice because the Lord called me home. Joshua Sauñe: So my brothers and sisters I can have so much to tell you. I know I have to remember that I am in America, and I don't want this one to open and to swarm me. The schedule it's very important to you. In Peru, I ask Dr. George how long do I have, and he said, "Joshua, until the Holy Spirit tells you otherwise." Joshua Sauñe: Let me tell you this. If I don't see you again, I know I'm going to see you somewhere. Where? Not in Peru or Aya- Maybe. You can come. I'll invite you to come to Ayacucho, but surely I will see you in heaven. So if I go first, I'll wait for you at the East Gate. If you go first, wait for me also at the East Gate because we are one family. Let's pray. Joshua Sauñe: [foreign language 00:37:54] Heavenly Father, Mighty God, all powerful, thank you Lord for giving me this opportunity to come to this place, to this chapel. I know you are hearing and listening and seeing everything that has been done in this place. Lord bless this my family. Please, bless this school. Bless the ones that are in charge. Bless Lord, Dr. George, the staff. Everybody that's involved Lord in expanding your kingdom in this part of the country. Lord we remember the life of my brother Romulo and he is beside you right now. Lord many time I pray not only for him, Lord but all the ones that went before me. Joshua Sauñe: Lord I know your word says the martyrs, the saints are before you every day saying "Until when O Lord your are not going to avenge us?" Lord I pray that they will have patience, and have patience O Lord with my people, the Quechua people. Give us more opportunity to reach my people for you. Give us more opportunity Lord to reach the people here in United States. How many more are there that they don't know you, Lord? Joshua Sauñe: Yes there is sufferings, yes there is persecutions, but it doesn't matter. Lord our lives belong to you. Bless this my brothers and sisters in this chapel, O Lord. Change their lives. Lord to be better husbands, to be better wives, to be godly fathers, godly mothers, godly children. Lord claim their hearts, their lives. Lord we are, we are for you, and you are holy and you want us to be holy. Thank you Lord. In your name we pray. Amen. God bless you my brothers and sisters. Announcer: You've been listening to the Beeson Podcast with host Timothy George. You can subscribe to the Beeson Podcast at our website beesondivinity.com. Beeson Divinity School is an interdenominational evangelical divinity school training men and women in the service of Jesus Christ. We pray that this podcast will aid and encourage your work and we hope that you will listen to each upcoming edition of the Beeson Podcast.