Beeson podcast, Episode 388
Rev. Anthony Thompson
April 17, 2018


Announcer:	Welcome to the Beeson podcast coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. Now, your host Timothy George.
Timothy George:	Welcome to today's Beeson podcast. Today I have the great privilege of speaking with the Rev. Anthony B. Thompson. He is the vicar of Holy Trinity Reformed Episcopal Church in Charleston, South Carolina, a third-generation minister in the Reformed Episcopal Church. He's here to preach at Beeson Divinity School, and we're having this conversation around his visit. So, welcome so much to our school and to this podcast.
Rev. Thompson:	Well, thank you so very much Dr. George for having me this morning. It's a blessing and an honor to be here at Beeson's Divinity School, and I'm very excited to share the gospel of forgiveness with all those who are willing to hear. 
Timothy George:	We wanna talk a little bit about your life and in particular a special event that happened to you several years ago, but first of all, tell us what is the Reformed Episcopal Church?
Rev. Thompson:	Well, the Reformed Episcopal Church came out of the Episcopal Church in the 1700s. Bishop David Cummins was a Bishop in the Episcopal Church, and of course, he served with the Presbyterian Church doing a communion week, and the Episcopal Church got very upset. 
Timothy George:	Ah.
Rev. Thompson:	And so, he decided from that point, and because of a lot of other things going on in the Episcopal Church at that time to leave the Episcopal Church and start the Reformed Episcopal Church. It was very much more Episcopal than Episcopal is. 
Timothy George:	And so, the word Reformed would indicate that you have a connection to Reformed theology or the Reformation in some way?
Rev. Thompson:	Well, in some way, yes, we have. It's still mostly related to the Episcopal Church as a whole, and the joke is that we place Reformed so that people would know there's a difference, but we still pretty much follow the order of service and.
Timothy George:	Book of Common Prayer?
Rev. Thompson:	Yes, the Book of Common Prayer. 
Timothy George:	Wonderful. And Cummins, you have a Seminary, Cummins Theological Seminary, named for this person.
Rev. Thompson:	Yes.
Timothy George:	Who was at the origin of your church. 
Rev. Thompson:	Yes.
Timothy George:	Now, I wanna take you to an event that happened in Charleston where you're now living, because it's an event that is so well known around the world. One of the great tragic events in recent American history. Will you tell us what happened that day?
Rev. Thompson:	Well, on June 17, 2015, a young man by the name of Dylann Roof went to Bible study at Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, South Carolina, and decided that he, well, he hated black people. He said that we were doing things to white Americans that in his eyes, were not good, and I don't want to get too much into what he said, but however, he took it upon himself, while in Bible study, to kill nine people of which my wife, Myra, was one of them. She was teaching Bible study that night. She was teaching the parable of the sower and the seed. 
	He had been there at a previous Bible study, and so when he came to this Bible study, it was not strange for him to be there, and everyone just hugged him and loved him, and did as much as they could for him, but for somehow he still had this hate in his heart. 
Timothy George:	I want to come back to this event, but tell us a little bit about your wife. Her mane was Myra, and she herself was a Minister in the AME African Methodist Episcopal Church, right?
Rev. Thompson:	Yeah. She was a minister. As a matter of fact, she had just become a minster in the AME Church. She was a very extraordinary person. She loved the Lord. When she decided to pursue the ministry, she was at my church. I was at a church in Summerville, South Carolina, named St. Stephen's Reformed Episcopal Church, and she had this vision looking at the pulpit, and she saw herself at the pulpit. Of course, she didn't want to tell anyone at that time, because she thought maybe perhaps we would think she just imagined it. So, she didn't know how anyone would take it. But after about a year or so, she explained it to me, and she asked me, "How do you know when God calls you?" So, I explained to her how it happened to me, and from that day forward, which was in 2013, she went forward to pursue the ministry in the AME Church. 
Timothy George:	So, you had a family, a household, with two ministers of different denominations. How did that work out?
Rev. Thompson:	Well, we always had a mutual understanding even before we actually married, me being a Reformed Episcopalian and her being an African Methodist Episcopalian, that we're not going to struggle with what denomination we're going to belong to. In my ministry, she was behind me 100%. She spent a lot of time in the Reformed Episcopal Church. She got really involved, and she spent just maybe a few days during the month at her own church. She really did not get fully engaged into Emanuel Church again until she pursued the ministry. 
Timothy George:	Yeah.
Rev. Thompson:	And when she pursued the ministry, her former pastor, which was Reverend Clementa Pickney, who is one of the nine who was killed. He and I met, and we discussed it, 'cause I wanted him to understand that I was okay with her being a minister in the denomination.
Timothy George:	Sure. Yeah.
Rev. Thompson:	So, there was never a problem. 
Timothy George:	And so she was teaching the Bible at Mother Emanuel.
Rev. Thompson:	Yes.
Timothy George:	AME Church in Charleston. One of the great historic churches, right, of your city?
Rev. Thompson:	Yes, it is.
Timothy George:	And she saw this young man come in, she invited him to come forward, and to be seated and to hear and participate with others in a very open act of Christian hospitality and generosity. Now, why was she speaking on that particular parable?
Rev. Thompson:	Well, it was a challenge for her. She came across it when I was preaching one time. I was not preaching on that particular parable, I just included it in a part of my sermon, and for some reason, it aroused her curiosity, and she started reading more of it. She didn't quite understand it, because she would never read the entire chapter. She would just go as far as the parable, and then when she would ask me "Well, what does it mean?" And I would tell her "Keep reading. Keep reading." And so she was. She kept reading, but she kept reading the same thing, and so the joke was on one day, I told her, I said "Well, you just have to go back and keep reading." 
	I heard her screaming one day upstairs. She came running down the steps screaming, "Aw, I got it. I got it. I got it. I got it!" I was like "Well, okay, what did you do?" She said, "You should have told me not just keep reading, but to read the whole chapter." And so she was very excited about what it said to her. 
Timothy George:	Yeah.
Rev. Thompson:	Because she was just making some changes in her life, and pursing the ministry, and seeing me as a minister, she could never understand why I did some of the things I did, and why she would call it "tolerate people the way I did."  
Timothy George:	Yeah.
Rev. Thompson:	And so, this was a change for her. 
Timothy George:	Yeah.
Rev. Thompson:	And this is one reason why she chose that particular Scripture, and there was a need in her church she thought for that particular Scripture. 
Timothy George:	Yeah.
Rev. Thompson:	There were some things going on. Yes.
Timothy George:	Of course, you were not present when this horrible, tragic event took place. How did you hear about it?
Rev. Thompson:	I was at my church. As a matter of fact, I wanted to be there with her, because normally when she speaks or I speak, or we get engaged in any activity or organization, we go with each other, but she was very adamant about me not being there that night. She had a way of influencing me to do what she want me to do, and she said "Well, you need to go to your church, because there's going be problems there for our first night of our Vacation Bible Study." And so I went there, left my church, and went home. 
	Usually, she'll get home before me, when she's in Bible study so I wasn't sure what was going on. Then I received a phone call from a member of Emanuel, and she asked for Myra. I said "Myra's not here." And she was "Well, she should be there, because we were in a meeting together, and I'm home. She should be home." And I reminded her that Myra had to teach Bible study that night, and while we were talking, someone called her, and she had me to hold on, and when she came back to the line, she said "Rev. Thompson, you need to go to the church." I said, "Well, I just left my church." She said "No, you need to go to Emanuel." I was like "Why?" She said, "Well, I heard there was some shooting." And before she could finish anything, I dropped the phone, and I ran. Not even locking my door.  Not even really understanding what was going on, and that's how I found out what was going on at Emanuel.
Timothy George:	So, you arrived at the church in the scene of this horrible tragedy.
Rev. Thompson:	Yeah, I arrive at the church, and of course, the streets are blocked off, and I was trying to explain to the officer that my wife was in that church, and I needed to get in there. But he assured me that everybody was okay. He said "They took the members from the church, and they took 'em across the street to the hotel", which it was adjacent to the church. So, I thought everything was fine until I got to a street called Meeting Street, and I saw nine ambulances, and the lights were not on. They were parked, and I just knew something must have happened. 
	So, I ran to the hotel where the officer said the members were placed, and I couldn't find her, and then I went to a room that I was directed where the members are supposed to be. Everybody was saying everybody was inside the hotel, and I opened the door, and I saw Polly Sheppard who was one of the survivors, and I saw Felecia Sanders who was another survivor, and her granddaughter, and I didn't see anybody else. And Felecia Sanders looked up to me, and she said "Anthony, Myra's gone." That was very devastating. But I still didn't believe her, of course.
Timothy George:	Yeah. Yeah. 
Rev. Thompson:	And actually I ran outside, and I just kinda walled it for a while, and mourned, and then for some reason, I had to get to the church. So, I ran towards the church, and I got by all the city agents, FBI agents. I don't know how it happened, but I got through the blockade they had up, and I was almost to the door of the church, and as I reached to open the door, somebody grabbed me, and it was an FBI agent. Asked me to identity myself, and I was struggling with him. We pretty much were fighting, 'cause I wanted to get into that church, and after I identified myself to him, he explained to me, he said, "No, you don't want go in there." And I asked myself, "Well?" 
	I asked him what was going on, if everybody was okay, hadn't heard anything, and there was nothing he could really tell me. Every time I asked him a question, he said, "I can't tell you." It was very frustrating. And so, I struggled some more to try to get in there, and they had to get three more officers to come and hold me back. Anyway, eventually, I ended up just losing control, which I never had in my life before. Never lost control.
Timothy George:	Sure.
Rev. Thompson:	I just fell out in the street, I wallowed in the street, and I just cried myself until somebody picked me up, and it was one of the first responders. His name was Spike. All I could remember saying is that, "I don't know what to do." 
Timothy George:	So, you're in the midst of this life catastrophe, so unspeakably evil, it's hard even to imagine it, and much less to experience it as you had to go through. Now, you're a minister of the gospel.
Rev. Thompson:	Yes.
Timothy George:	And talk about what you as a Christian and as a minister of the Word of God, how you responded in those days? It must have taken you a while to let it sink in, and did you wonder, "How did God let this happen?"
Rev. Thompson:	Well, I never really questioned God. I had a very strong faith from a child. I was raised by Christian parents, and I was just very close to Him. So, I never really blamed Him, I never asked Him, "Why?" I never even really gave second thought about who did it, because my mind was completely on Myra, and what happened to her. Did she suffer? Did she need me to be there? So, anything negative never came into my mind, but what did come to my mind was I remember God saying, "Now, Anthony, all of those sermons you preach to your people about who they value the most. Do they value me or do they value their loved ones, or do they value their possessions?"  And that's the first thing came to my mind, and He said, "Now you have to live that." 
Timothy George:	Now a remarkable thing happened. Rev. Thompson, I wish you would talk about it. When you actually were able to offer forgiveness to this young man, who had done the most unspeakable evil thing to a person so dear and precious to you, your own wife, tell us how that happened? It seems almost unbelievable that it could happen even to a person so deeply rooted in the church and in the faith, in the Scriptures as you are, but God led you to that position, right?
Rev. Thompson:	Oh, yes.
Timothy George:	Where you were able to offer forgiveness to Dylann Roof.
Rev. Thompson:	Yes, I was led by God, because I did not want to be present at the Bond Hearing. I was a retired Probation Agent. I took people to several Bond Hearings, and I knew he would come out, receive a bond, and they take him back to his cell. So, I didn't see any significance in going to a Bond Hearing. However, my daughter and my son, my daughter, Denise, and my son, Kevin, they kept saying they wanted to go, and my daughter said, "Well, I'm not going unless you go." And that's what got me there. 
	On our way there, I was very adamant about them not saying anything to anyone. I said "We're going set down. When we get through the Bond Hearing, we're getting up and we're leaving." And when I got there I can remember looking at my watch, and all of a sudden this voice came. A voice that I'm very familiar with. I heard His voice when I was seven years old, I heard His voice again in 2010, God saying, "I have something to say." And I got up immediately, and I was walking towards the podium, and I'm like "Okay, God, you better come on, 'cause I don't have anything to say. You say you have something to say. What is it?"
	I still didn't have any anger in my heart for this young man, but God said, "I forgive you, my family forgive you. You need to repent. You need to confess and give your life to the One who your life means the most to, and that's Christ." And I said, "You're in a lot of trouble right now, but if you do that, He can help you change your ways and change your attitudes." I said, "No matter what happens to you, you're going to be all right." And that's all He had me to say. 
	I pretty much saw Dylann, you know, God was really working in my heart, because I saw him as I saw myself, as a sinner, and that made a big difference. And I said, "If God could forgive me, then I can forgive him."
Timothy George:	You know, there was an article about you, a feature story really, in Time Magazine. You were pictured on the front cover of Time, and there were a series of questions that were asked in that article, including these: Can murder be forgiven, and if so, who has the power? Must it be earned or given freely? Who benefits from forgiveness? The sinner or the survivor? And why do we forgive at all? Is it a way of remembering or of forgetting? Well, some of our listeners will not have read that article, but I wonder if you would tell us how you would answer some of those questions? In a situation like this, what does forgiveness mean and what does it not mean?
Rev. Thompson:	Well, murder can be forgiven. I'm not saying it's very easy for someone to actually forgive another person who murdered their loved ones. I'm not saying it's easy to do, but murder can be forgiven, because murder is a sin just like any other sin. That's the way I look at it. There's no greater sin, there's no lesser sin. A sin is a sin. And so, yes, murder can be forgiven. For others, it may be a little harder. It all depends on, I guess, where their relationship is with the Lord, because that basically, is going to be the turning point in your life to be able to do that. Depending on where you are with Him. 
Timothy George:	You were brought up in a Christian family, and you were taught this principle. 
Rev. Thompson:	Oh, yeah.
Timothy George:	Jesus on the cross, "Forgive them for they know not what they do." This was ingrained into you almost, I think, as a little child, growing up in a Christian family.
Rev. Thompson:	I saw my parents do it. I saw them do it all the time. It wasn't something that they actually told me, it's something they showed me. And my growing up, it was strange, because sometimes I was like "Why?" I wouldn't do it if I was them, but of course, it was ingrained into me. 
Timothy George:	Let me ask you a slightly different question, related though, and that is you were able, it seems almost supernaturally, to forgive this person that many people would think of as a monster, who had done the most unspeakable evil to the person dearest to you in life. You were able to extend forgiveness in Jesus' name to him. What about anger? We speak sometimes of holy indignation. How do you handle anger in this event?
Rev. Thompson:	Well, first of all, it's hard to make me angry. I'm a very patient person, and so I think that had a lot to do with this situation with Dylann, and I never really focused on what he did, and the fact that he did it. My focus was really not on him. My focus was pretty much on my wife, and she occupied most of my mind during that time. So, I really didn't feel any anger towards him.
Timothy George:	Would she have wanted you to do what you were able to do?
Rev. Thompson:	Oh, yeah. Without a shadow of a doubt.
Timothy George:	Yeah.
Rev. Thompson:	Yeah. That's the kind a person she was. But I remember getting angry at one time, but I wasn't angry at Dylann. I was angry because God put me on another mission, and during the course of what had just happened, and I couldn't understand. At the Bond Hearing, He told me I had a new mission, and that was to spread the gospel of forgiveness. It didn't completely sink in until a few days when I was home by myself, and I was like, "Why? Why would you want me to do this at a time like this? And how can I? There's no way possible." So, I got a little angry at Him, and frustrated. I can remember screaming at Him. I can remember falling down on the ground, and just like "I'm not gonna do it." And of course, like David, later on I came to my senses, and I asked Him to forgive me. But that was the only time I can remember being angry. But my anger was never focused on Dylann. Dylann, I don't know. God somehow soothed my spirit. He somehow prepared me for this before it actually happened. 
	There was a lot of things that I went through in my life, you know, and working with the state as an agent, that I had to just forgive people for. Maybe not verbally, but just not paying attention to how they treated me, or what they were trying to do to me, and then preaching forgiveness so many times on the pulpit. I mean, I probably got about 40 or 50 sermons just on forgiveness that I preached prior to this, and all these things running through my mind. God's just bringing all these things to remember us about what I told my people, what I told my congregation. And so, I think that buffeted the anger.
	Even to this day, I'm not angry with him. I sat in court and I actually saw him not showing any remorse, not even looking us in the face, and telling us if he had the opportunity, he would do it again, and you know, I tried to get angry, but I couldn't. I just couldn't. I just couldn't. God's spirit just wouldn't let me do it. I mean, I have no regrets about not being angry with him, and there's just something about God's Spirit. It just won't let me do it. 
Timothy George:	Now, I want to take just a second to move from that event in your life and your response to it, and to ask you to comment a little bit on the wider issue of racial tension, racial injustice in our country. It's been with us a long time, of course, but it seems right now to have reached a kind of fever pitch in a lot of communities. 
Rev. Thompson:	Yeah.
Timothy George:	We're making this conversation here in Birmingham, Alabama. It's the city with a history, a city with scars.
Rev. Thompson:	Yes.
Timothy George:	And in need of reconciliation, and I'm sure the same would be true of Charleston, South Carolina.
Rev. Thompson:	Right.
Timothy George:	And any city we could think of in our country. Talk a little bit about racism, and a Christian engagement with it?
Rev. Thompson:	Well, racism definitely is prevalent, and like you said, it is in every city. Of course, I've experienced it in Charleston. Now it was a long time in my life before I actually experienced racism, because I'm a military brat, and so, we were around every kind a culture, every race, and never once did I, as a child, experience that 'til I got older, and something happened. 
	Right now, in the city of Charleston, being that it was the first state to secede from the union because of slavery, and being the kind of people that were. We were very hospitable people, but there's an undertone of racism that we never discussed or talked about until this tragedy. And since this tragedy, the city of Charleston has really come together. Right now, along with the Mayor's office, Mayor Tecklenburg, we have what we call an advisory council of ministers, and we're focusing on reconciliation in the entire city of Charleston, and hope it will spread through the state of South Carolina. And more people are speaking out about racism in Charleston. 
	I spoke at a church, Trinity Church, which was once an Episcopal Church, and predominantly white, aristocratic congregation, and I had one lady, after I got through speaking, to tell me she was a middle-aged, white lady, and she just got up and gave her testimony about how she was taught racism, how she was taught to hate black people, and went down through her family, and when she became older, she understood better. She knew better, but she didn't do better, because the pressure from status and other people, her friends, and when she heard about this forgiveness concerning Dylann Roof, that me and some of the other family members expressed, she said she repented of racism, and she had her kids with her. She said she wanted them to understand that.
	So, it's something that we're tackling now, because it's there. It's everywhere, and we have to tackle it from a Christian point of view. We can't make people think different. We have to do it by example. What we're doing now, we're getting into our pulpits, and we're preaching about racism. Not coming out and saying racism, but from the Scripture in reference to love and hate. As a matter of fact, we just had this last season, St. Michael's Church was predominantly white, St. John Lutheran Church, predominantly white, First Scots Presbyterian Church, predominately white, and First Baptist Church, of course, you know is the first Baptist Church in United States of America, and my church. We have been meeting and preaching from each other’s pulpit. This last season was confronting evil, and it was concerning racism, discrimination, and we all preached on each other's pulpit concerning that. 
	We're trying to tackle it from a Christian point of view, from Scripture. We're not trying to force it on anybody, or try to offend anyone. We're just trying to make people realize that it's time to heal, it's time to come together, and the only way to do that is we going to have to forgive each other. That's where healing begins. Because it's on both sides. Black and white.
Timothy George:	Yeah.
Rev. Thompson:	You know, blacks feel the same way. The whites feel the same way when it comes to some of us may hate whites and some whites may hate blacks. I mean, it's on both sides of the fence, and so it's something we have to do from the pulpit, and then we have to engage ourselves into the community. Not the community that surrounds your church, but the entire community. One way to tackle that problem is for the pastors to come together and go to each other's community, and there's something that we're doing in Charleston too. 
	Before the Lent season actually starts, we'll meet, and we'll go down Broad Street to the lawyer's office, to all the businesses, black and white pastors, and we go and witness to people, and then we'll go in the inner city and do the same thing. So, this is how we're trying to confront that challenge.
Timothy George:	Dr. John Leeth was a great Presbyterian theologian, a friend of mine, and he wrote a book with an interesting subtitle "What The Church Can Say That No One Else Can Say", and I think I'm hearing you say something that's distinctive about the mission of the church. We haven't done it very well, often. We don't live it very well, but we're called to that, it seems to me, by the gospel itself, and you're a wonderful example of how that can actually be realized in action there in Charleston. 
	Thank you so much for being with us today, and sharing out of your heart. This great tragedy in your life that you have not run away from, but that you continue to talk about and to reflect on, and to move out into the world in the name of Christ from, and it's an inspiration to hear you talk, and thank you so much for being here today.
Rev. Thompson:	Well, thank you for having me.
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