Beeson Podcast, Episode 322 Gerald McDermott, Darrel Bock, Craig Blaising January 10, 2017 https://www.beesondivinity.com/podcast/2017/The-New-Christian-Zionism Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Sanford University in Birmingham, Alabama. Now your host, Timothy George. Timothy George: Welcome to today's Beeson podcast. This is coming to you from San Antonio, Texas, where we've gathered for the Evangelical Theological Society. That's an annual meeting of biblical scholars and theologians from all over the evangelical world, and I have the privilege today of talking to three folks who are here for that meeting. They are my colleague at Beeson, Dr. Gerald McDermott, the Anglican chair of divinity at Beeson Divinity School; Dr. Craig Blaising, who is the Jesse Hendley Chair of Biblical Theology and Executive Vice President and Provost - you do a lot of work - at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, which is in Fort Worth, Texas; and Darrell Bock, senior research professor of New Testament studies at Dallas Theological Seminary. Welcome, all of you, my good friends. Now the reason we're all together talking today on this podcast is we're focusing on a brand new book that just came out from InterVarsity Press edited by Gerald McDermott titled "The New Christian Zionism: Fresh Perspectives on Israel and the Land." That's a fascinating topic, and we're going to talk about that book today and the issues that it raises. Let me begin with you, Gerald. Tell us, what is Zionism? G. McDermott: Zionism is the idea that the return to the land by Jews from all over the world in the last 150 years to establish a homeland for the Jews is a good thing. Now that's Zionism, period. Now of course Jews have been in the land for over 3000 years uninterruptedly, but the massive return in the last 150 years, the idea that this is a good thing. That's Zionism. Now, religious Zionism is the idea that this is a God thing and it's a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. Timothy George: Okay. So when we think about Herzl and the movement of Zionism in early 20th century Europe to return the Jewish people to the land of Israel, that would be a part of, would you say political Zionism? G. McDermott: Yes, very definitely political Zionism, but Herzl had his own religious reasons too. He's often miscast as a completely secular man; it's not true. Yoram Hazony over in Jerusalem has written about Herzl and his religious, as well as secular and political, motivations. Timothy George: Now this book is not just about Zionism though. It's called The New Christian Zionism. So what is Christian Zionism and what's new about it? G. McDermott: Well, basically Christian Zionism is the idea that the New Testament is thoroughly Zionist but we've never seen it because we've been trained not to see it. So it focuses on all sorts of passages in the New Testament, but not just passages individually but the whole narrative thread of the Gospels and also the Epistles. So for example, Jesus, in Acts 1, he says in a manner of speaking that the Kingdom of Israel will be restored. In Luke 13 he says, "One day Jerusalem will welcome me." So Jesus is looking forward to a future for the Jews as a people and a future for the land of Israel. Peter, the head of the Apostles, says in Acts 3:21, "A time of restoration, apokatastasis, is stilll coming." Now apokatastasis is a Greek word that's used in the Greek version of the Old Testament time and time again for the future restoration of Israel, and Peter uses that very word. Paul says in Romans 11, "When the fullness of the Gentiles has come, then all Israel will be saved." So he's looking to a future for Jews and a future for Israel. And then John, the author of the book of Revelation, at the back of the New Testament says, "The new Jerusalem will have walls," in Revelation 21, "and will have gates. And on these gates will be inscribed the names of the 12 tribes of the sons of Israel." So Christian Zionism is the idea that the New Testament is Zionist and we have yet to fully see this. Darrell Bock: So we could sing the old Sunday school song "the bible tells me so," is that right? Timothy George: Yes. You're not presenting this as some new idea that's come to you out of the blue, but rather drawing on the revelation that God has given us in Scripture and a view that's been articulated throughout the history of the church in different ways by different people. G. McDermott: Yeah, and that's the point of the book, that this is not just an invention of the 19th century. It's not just an invention of John Nelson-Darby and the dispensationalist movement, as much truth as they did have, but this goes back to the New Testament. You see it in the early church. You see it in Justin Martyr and in Irenaeus and Tertullian; they all believe, they all talk about Jerusalem, some day in the future, being rebuilt, being restored. Now it changes starting with Origen, where he starts to spiritualize all the material promises in the Old Testament about the future of Israel. And then it's picked up by Augustine, who says the future of the church is here in what became the Roman Catholic Church eventually. Now you have various Christian thinkers in the Middle Ages who also, I would say, were Christian Zionists, like Hildegard of Bingen and Joachim of Fiore, but their voices are minority voices, and you really don't have a return of full-blooded, as it were, Christian Zionism until the 16th century with the Puritans primarily and then, in the 18th century, Jonathan Edwards. And interestingly, most of these guys, the Puritans and Jonathan Edwards, were post-millennialists, unlike the pre-millennialism of later dispensationalism, and they're all talking about a future for the people of Israel, Jews, and a future for the land of Israel. And then in the 20th century you've got people like Karl Barth and Reinhold Niebuhr, who are Christian Zionists; and Robert Jensen, the great Lutheran theologian today who's a Christian Zionist; and Gary Anderson, the Catholic, great Old Testament Biblical scholar at Notre Dame, who is a Christian Zionist. So Christian Zionism is far larger than we thought and far older than we thought. Timothy George: Now Gerry, you've edited this book, but you also wrote one of the opening chapters, "A History of Supersessionism." Now I think what you just gave us is a thumbnail sketch of supercessionism going back to Origen, Augustine, and so forth. Define supercessionism and what do you see wrong with it? G. McDermott: Yeah. Supersessionism means the church has superseded Israel, the church has replaced Israel, so that God is no longer concerned about Jews. He's no longer concerned about the land of Israel. Both Jews who have not accepted Jesus and the land of Israel have no more theological significance after 33 AD. Now all theologians agree that the Old Testament is thoroughly Zionist. It is about a universal promise of salvation through the whole world, coming through a particular man named Abraham and his progeny, and having something to do with the land of Israel. I mean all Christian theologians agree with that, that in the Old Testament you have both universality of promise and particularity of fulfillment in the people of Israel and in the land of Israel. But then most of the church has said, and most Christian theologians still say today, that when you get to the New Testament the particularity drops out and all you have is the universal. You have universal salvation for all peoples, and the particular land of Israel has now become the whole world. And that's essentially supercessionism. Timothy George: Now Craig let me turn to you. You've written a chapter in this book called "Biblical Hermeneutics: How Are We to Interpret the Relation Between the Tanak and the New Testament on This Question?” Say a little bit about what you were doing there. Craig Blaising: Yeah the issue of interpretation is a key issue. People differ because they interpret the Bible differently. And the whole question is: how do you understand the role of Israel in the story of the Bible? As Gerry said, there has been this tradition in the history of Christian thought that somehow in the story of the Bible, Israel drops out. The church has replaced them and so all of God's plans and promises are fulfilled in the church, and along with that, promises about a nation and a land have all dropped out. That is a common way in which a number of people read the Bible. But what I'm really saying in this chapter is that's not really an accurate reading of the Biblical narrative. The whole story of the Bible takes Israel into account, and in fact the promises of God to Israel as a nation and as a people in the land actually are going to be fulfilled. The issue really comes down to this: has the New Testament changed the story of the Bible? I mean everybody knows that in the Old Testament you're reading about Israel there, but has the New Testament changed all of that? And what I'm pointing out here is that actually no, the New Testament does not change that. In fact, the plan and purpose of God for Israel and for all peoples is affirmed in the New Testament. The issue has to do with finding a bearing. The Bible has a lot of books in it, and there are many, many texts in there, and the question is: where do we kind of stake a bearing to give us a directional pointer? And what I'm arguing is when you look at the Gospels and you look at Acts, you actually find this directional bearing. This comes from when the angel Gabriel, that had revealed to Daniel about the direction of God's plans for history back in the book of Daniel, shows up in the beginning of Luke and speaks to Mary and says that her son will reign on the throne of David forever. And then you have the hymns of Mary and Zechariah thanking God that he's going to fulfill his covenant promises. And then you follow that line through the end of Luke and the beginning of Acts, as Gerry has already mentioned. In Acts 1, Jesus teaching his disciples, reminding them about the kingdom promises, about the kingdom being fulfilled for Israel and the world, and the issue there is just when is that going to happen? Not is it going to happen, but when is it going to happen. And he indicates that it's not for them to know the time, but that's a way of affirming that it will happen, it just happens at the time that God chooses. And as Gerry has already mentioned, in Acts 3 Peter says that in fact the restoration of all the things promised by the prophets will take place, but it will be at the time when Jesus returns. Now what we find going forward is that this is affirmed by Paul in Romans, that Paul talks about the present situation that not all Jews have accepted the gospel, but in fact God has a plan that all Israel will be saved. And that salvation, to be clear, is going to come through Jesus Christ. There is no salvation, there is no other name by which one might be saved except through Jesus Christ, but there's going to be a turning in which Jews along with many Gentiles come to put their faith in Jesus Christ. But the promises of God for Israel and a nation are also affirmed, because he says in Romans that the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable; they cannot be revoked. They were promised by the covenant. So taking that as a lead and a bearing, we can see that the New Testament and the Old Testament actually cohere in a common story of the plan and purposes for all of God's promises. Timothy George: So we can say God has not reneged on his promises, and when the disciples ask that question, "Will the kingdom at this time be restored?" They were not told, "No, you've misunderstood this. There's been a change of plan." The purpose goes on. Now I have a question, and any one of you can chime in on this. Because there's what's called today the Two Covenant Theology that says that God has a covenant with the Jews and he saves them through their Jewish faith, just as he has a covenant with the Christians, and these are kind of in tandem, running together throughout history. Comment on that. Is it necessary for Jewish people to trust in Jesus Christ as savior and lord? Darrell Bock: Well, short answer is yes, or else Peter and Paul were out of a job. If Jews through the law were able to be saved, then Peter and Paul were wasting their breath. So in that sense, no. The two covenant view is really, I think, a sociological product of the last century and the horrors of the Holocaust, etc. and a kind of collective global guilt about Jews that caused people to say, "Let's not bother the Jewish people anymore." And out of that came this view that was said to be out of respect but actually is a denial of this very cohesion that we're talking about between the Old Testament message and what we see in the New Testament: how Christ is Israel's king, how Christ is the fulfillment of Israel's promises that both have global reach and at the same time is accomplishing something for the nation. Timothy George: So you mentioned anti-Semitism. Comment on that in terms of this particular view, the new Christian Zionism, because there seems to be a rise in anti-Semitism in our culture today and other places in the world. Does this view speak to that in any particular way? Darrell Bock: Absolutely. And part of the way it speaks to it is to say there is a place for Israel, but there also is a global reach to what is happening with Christ, and there's a reconciliation that's a major part of the story. Some people when they hear new Christian Zionism think that this is only just about Israel, only just about ethnic Jews. But in fact it's far broader than that; actually it's a way of talking about how to integrate a place for Israel and ethnic Jews in a larger program, in the larger thing that God is doing, into which Israel fits. Don't shove her off to the side, marginalize her, or dismiss her, but see the role, one, she had in generating this to begin with, and the role she continues to have as a reflection of God's faithfulness and grace on the other end. G. McDermott: You know, N.T. Wright has rightly reminded biblical readers that salvation is not only of our individual souls but also of our bodies and also of the nations. The book of Revelation, particularly, talks about the renewal of the nations that is to come. When you read the book of Revelation, you see the different tribes and peoples and nations. We aren't just going to be all look-alike automatons in a totalitarian, one-world state, as it were. Instead, it's going to be a spiritual federation of nations. And so I think we can look on the promises about the restoration of Israel - and even it's imperfect but nevertheless fulfillment in things happening over in the Middle East since 1948 in this little strip of land now called Israel - as a firstfruits, as a down payment on this eventual renewal of the nations. And you know, a lot of Christians ask me when I talk about this, they say ... and it just came up here at ETS the other day, "Well, how can you believe that the present state of Israel is in any sense a fulfillment of biblical prophecy because after all, it's supposed to be part of the messianic era, and the messianic era is supposed to be a time of peace? And look at the Middle East!" Well, we Christians say that Jesus is the king of peace, and Jesus is the Messiah even though there's lots of biblical prophecies about the Messiah bringing a time of peace, and we say, "Well, the coming of the Messiah is a complex event, a multi-stage event. He comes in the first century AD, doesn't bring worldwide peace, doesn't bring political peace. He will bring that in a later stage at his second coming." And we also say, we Christians are adamant that the church is the body of Christ, even though the church is full of fighting and sin and warts and wrinkles, and we say it's still the body of Christ. Well, why can't we lend a little bit of Christian charity, a little bit of hermeneutical charity to this nation of Israel and not insist that in order to be a fulfillment of prophecy it has to be perfect? Well, the body of Christ is far from perfect, and yet we still say it's the body of Christ. Timothy George: I like your term "hermeneutical charity." I've never heard that before, but it sounds good to me. Now some of you know there's a movement called evangelicals and Catholics together. Is there any such comparable, analogous movement between, let's say, supercessionists and new Christian Zionists together? Is there any conversation going on between you guys, people who agree with you on this issue, and others who might take the more Augustinian traditional view that spiritualizes Israel or says this is a thing that has been overcome in the new Christian era? Craig Blaising: There are conversations that go on. There's not any kind of a document type of thing. But I think the primary concern right now is to clarify what this new Christian Zionism is, because for many, they seem to approach it in older categories. So what we're trying to do is to bring forward issues that do need to be addressed and sometimes are kind of eclipsed by other concerns. And I think until that conversation really takes place, it's difficult to see where these conversations might go. I do want to pick up on what Gerry had said, because one of the interpretive questions is: what about the present state of Israel? And that is one of the issues in the conversation between the two groups that often comes up, because as I was saying, when we look at the Bible, we see a future for Israel as a nation. People need to see that in the Scripture, but then there's the question of: does the Bible talk at all about what's happening today? And that's where somebody might object, as Gerry said, "Well, we're not really in the final fulfillment of prophecy. Jesus is not here yet, and so how is it that this that's happening today could be seen in any way as related to what the Scripture talks about?" And I would say a couple of things. Even from centuries ago, as Gerry has already outlined for us, people began to see that the Scripture at least raises the possibility that Israel may come back in the land before the hearts of the people are changed. The great promise is in Ezekiel that "I will put my spirit in you and cause you to walk in my ways," but the language in the text seems to indicate that they may be brought back by God into the land before that happens. And in fact, in Isaiah there are prophecies that he will do exactly that, that he will bring them back into the land, and even before they recognize who he really is, and that even that fact of bringing them back into the land is his signature piece, because in the Scripture he ties his name to this action of bringing them into the land. This goes all the way back to Exodus and is repeated in the Prophets, and it comes in the form that, "When you see this, when you see that I bring you back into this land, then you will know," and he gives his name, the name of the Lord, and this is his action and he will use that to open the hearts and the eyes of the people. Darrell Bock: Even in Second Temple Judaism, there is this expectation that when this delivering figure for Israel comes, he will purge Israel at the same time that he defeats the nations and establishes his peace. Psalms of Solomon 17 and 18 have this figure working as much with Israel as he does with the nations, so this strand that Craig was just talking about even gets picked up in the syntheses, at least some of them that you see, in the Second Temple Period by Jewish writers who are sharing the same kind of hope. Craig Blaising: The great text in the Scripture is of course in Zechariah 12, where you have exactly that situation Darrell was talking about, with the great climax of the judgment of God, the time at which God brings judgment on the world, and it says that they will look upon ... very interesting text, it says, "They will look upon me whom they have pierced, and they will mourn as for an only son." And through many decades and many centuries, Christians have seen that text as referring to a future time when the hearts of the people turn to the Lord Jesus. Timothy George: Now, Darrell, you have a chapter in this book, "How Should the New Christian Zionism Proceed," what's the agenda of this movement of thought. Say a little bit about what you're proposing. Darrell Bock: Well first, I did a lot of work explaining where the newness is from and what people need to understand about what makes this new. And so I went through six different levels of newness, or at least clarity in terms of what it is that was being said. Things like this is not just about Israel, it's not just about ethnic Jews; it is about a larger program. There is a sense in which Christ fulfills this, and in the fulfillment that comes with Christ and what Christ does for Gentiles, there's the question of, "Okay, what's the relationship between Gentiles and Israel?" That question is very real. Part of the hermeneutical issue that Craig was mentioning is sorting out the relationship between the centrality of Christ in all this, which supercessionists subsume everything under and then do the redefinition work of what Israel is as a result, versus a view that says, "Yes, Christ at the center of this, but the Christ who's at the center of this has also said Israel herself has a future in what it is that I'm doing." That distinction is very important in this conversation, because it's still a Christological view that we're talking about here with new Christian Zionism, but it's not one that swallows up the distinctions and the reconciliation that's coming off the other side. There's a distinction between ... the difference between believing Israel and national Israel, as you've heard already articulated, we've already talked about that, which means that national Israel still has moral obligations to the way she treats people in her own land. That's not something that Christian Zionists are unconcerned about. So we can talk about anti-Semitism on the one hand, but this isn't necessarily anti-Palestinian on the other. So that's an important thing to say. A third distinction is that it's not as nationalistic as some people think because of this reconciliation element. Part of the way you get reconciliation is you've gotta have two parties to reconcile. If they all get swallowed up into each other and they lose their identity in the midst of that swallowing up, you lose the picture of reconciliation that God is actually seeking to achieve. So it's not as nationalistic as some people think. It needs to focus on the fact that this reconciliation is at the center of the story, that the goal of the exercise is it's not just for Israel. It's the way in which Israel and the nations, who had been enemies and been apart, have been brought together by God to establish the very shalom that is the ultimate goal of everything that's taking place in this kingdom program. It needs to be non-discriminatory in its application of justice, so that, again, because of the reconciliation background that stands behind it, what then comes forward is if you're going to complain about Israel's lack of morality and justice in treating Palestinians, you've also gotta discuss the lack of justice and fairness in the way Palestinians or Arabs treat Israel. That this is a two-way conversation, it's a two-way street, and that very much needs to be on the table, so we need to balance out that story. I often say when I go to Israel, I hear the same stories, it's just that different people wear the black and white hats. They just switch places depending on who I'm talking to, but it's the same kinds of injustice, and both sides lock in on what's been unjust to them, what's been done to them, and tend to cast a blind eye to the way they're handling other people. And then last, and this is the least theological of the six, there needs to be a careful articulation of Israel's legal right to the land as it emerged in the 20th century. In other words, a very clear articulation of how it is that the nation of Israel was formed, got access to land, and the legal processes by which that happened, to undercut claims that what took place was fundamentally, on an international level, illegal. Timothy George: So you're talking about like the Balfour Declaration? Darrell Bock: Yes, exactly. Everything about that history and the way that emerged, the way in which that dealt with. Now it is true that there were issues in the way that was done and which could have perhaps been executed better, but the legal right of being able to do it was, I think, well established. And all that needs to be said. And then the last point of the chapter was, having made these distinctions clear, there needs to be conferences. There needs to be books. There needs to be podcasts. I've spent a lot of time talking about the fact that younger people process information not by reading for the most part, but by what they hear over the net, by what goes on digitally, the way in which people talk about these things. And so part of what has to be focused on is not just communicating this in old, technical ways that information gets communicated, but also through the digital means that exists. So I thank you very much for this podcast. Timothy George: Sure. Well I want to wrap up our conversation. We're about out of time, but the book concludes with five propositions. I'm just going to read them and ask one of you, any one of you, to comment briefly on these. I think this is a good summary of what this book proposes. Number one: Israel shows us who we are and who God is. G. McDermott: I think Israel shows us who we are before God at both our best and our worst. She demonstrates God's creation of human beings with capacity to trust in him, and the human predilection to reject God. Timothy George: Number two: Sacred history is not over. G. McDermott: Well, a very important 20th century theologian, Jean Daniélou, observed that biblical prophecy is the announcement of the fact that, at the end of time, God will accomplish works still greater than in the past. And it means that we can expect that, in the latter days, the unfolding of sacred history will continue. Timothy George: Number three: Eschatological fulfillment is both revealed and hidden. That sounds like a Craig question. Craig Blaising: Well, in Isaiah the Lord says, "Behold, I'm doing a new thing. Will you not see this?" In fact he does things, but what he does is in line with the revealed plan and purpose of God. Now there are things that are unrevealed, and so much of what takes place in history, the Lord has not revealed in its details before it happens. What we know is, of course, the big story, but we do know some very specific things that are going to happen, and when we see Israel coming back into the land, there is a divine signature in that historical activity that does need to be recognized in accordance with Scripture. G. McDermott: And so we know the return of Jews to the land is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy, and we know that things are going to be happening in the future, but the exact, precise details of how and when- Timothy George: The timetables and ... G. McDermott: The timetables and the schedules, new Christian Zionism is saying we are eschatologically agnostic on the details. Timothy George: Agnostic's a bad word. I don't like that word. You're saying we just don't know. G. McDermott: We just don't know. Timothy George: I know what you mean. G. McDermott: It's part of God's mystery. Darrell Bock: The other thing that's important here is that there's a revealing and hiddenness in the way in which this progressively disclosed within the Scripture. So in the New Testament you get the description of the scribe of the kingdom finds things both new and old side by side. And so the idea here is that you've got things that have been revealed, but the linkages, how the puzzle pieces fit together, is not always clear. But as we get more and more, we get more pieces dropping in. But when you do that, it's very important to recognize you don't lose the piece that you had, okay? The piece that you had is still there. The question is how does it link to the new piece? Craig Blaising: New Christian Zionism is not one monolithic view on all things. It's really a gathering, a kind of coalition that affirms that fact that God not only has a future for Israel, but the present state of Israel, what God is doing there, is part of that overall plan. There are eschatological patterns, there are revealed things about the future, but basically from my perspective in the Scripture, all of these are tied to a coming that we don't know the timing of it. In fact that's what was said by Jesus to his disciples in Acts 1, "It's not for you to know that time." And so in the meantime we have a mission. We have a mission to take the gospel to the entire world, and that includes Jerusalem and Judea, not only as it was, but as it is now. And the future for everyone, whether Jew or Gentile, individually, needs to come back to the issue of personal faith in Jesus Christ because none of us have a future except for the forgiveness of sins and salvation. Darrell Bock: And that Acts 1 passage is important because Jesus doesn't say to the question, (Is this the time you're restoring the kingdom of Israel?) "Oh, you've got that all wrong. He pulls out his hair and gets a bald spot on the top of his head cause he's frustrated with the disciples, that they've even asked this question. They've misunderstood what he's told them for 40 days when he's explained the Old Testament to them. They're still expecting that there is a place for Israel in the program of God. Timothy George: Four: This fulfillment is not in its final stage. G. McDermott: Well this follows up on what Craig just said, that we cannot know the unfolding of the end times with any precision, but we can know that this stage of fulfillment is not the final one. There are still more things to come. There's always tension between promise and fulfillment of any prophecy, and we need to live with that tension. Darrell Bock: The Acts 3 passage is also important because this apokatastasis that you started off with, this restoration, is directly connected to things the prophets have already said. So if you want to know the outlines and the contours of what this looks like, Peter is saying in Acts 3, read your Hebrew Scripture. It tells you. Timothy George: Now this fifth proposition, I'd like for all three of you to comment on it. Israel and the Church are integrally joined. G. McDermott: I'll start. We theologians talk about the scandal of particularity, that the Enlightenment had such a hard time with the fact that God's revelation would not be given in the same way throughout all of history to all peoples, but instead comes to a very particular people in a particular land at a particular time in history. This was scandalous for the Enlightenment, and particularly the 18th century Deists. Well, all of orthodox Christian theology has said, "Well, that's the way our God is. That's the way the true God is." Who is the God of Israel? Who comes through a particular man named Abraham, and then a particular Israelite named Jesus Christ in a particular land in a particular time, the first century AD. Well, what the new Christian Zionism proposes is that the scandal of Zionism, and it is a scandal for many Christians and people all over the world today, is the 21st century version of the scandal of particularity. Just as he did thousands of years ago, God comes to the world again universally, but through a particular people in a particular land. He's done that for millennia, and he continues to do that today. Craig Blaising: I would say that it's important to know that Israel and the Church are not the same thing, and that's why, in the story of the Bible, the Church has not replaced Israel. Israel is a nation. It's a nation that God has granted a specific territorial existence. There are other nations in the plan of God. The plan revealed to Abraham was to bless all nations “in you,” but that blessing to all the nations manifests itself in the way in which salvation comes to each one individually, whether Jew or Gentile. And the great blessing that's revealed to us in Christ is that whether Jew or Gentile, we're united to Christ by faith in him and our sins are forgiven and we're indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And so consequently, it's that Spirit-wrought unity of persons with Christ which is the Church, and that includes Jews in Israel today who believe in Yeshua, whose faith is in Yeshua. That includes Gentiles or Jews in the United States or in any country of the world who put their faith in him. They are part of this Spirit-wrought union that we refer to as the Church, but this doesn't exclude the existence of peoples, nationally, and God's plan for them territorially and politically as well. So there we see that the Church and Israel are connected, but they're not the same things. And it's this distinction that's important to understand the integrity of Israel in the plan and the promise of God and how the whole of the story of the Bible is moving toward its conclusion. Darrell Bock: And the thing that brings that all together is that the center, the figure who connects them to each other, is Jesus Christ. This is a Christologically centered theology in which Christ is doing something on the one hand, for individuals and gathering them together in a transnational structure, on the one hand, but God is also about, through Jesus Christ, restoring shalom on the earth and to the nations, side by side, with one another. My joke is that when Jesus comes back, we will not debate who the pope is. And in the midst of that, we will see him at the center of a kingdom. And how do you have peace? You bring reconciliation to those groups that have been at each other's throats, and so that's what is pictured here. So a role for Israel doesn't discount a role for the church. You can have them side-by-side, and the unifier in all of it ... This is a wonderful place to conclude. The unifier in all of it is Jesus Christ. Craig Blaising: Jesus is the Lord and Savior of everyone who puts their faith in him personally, whether Jew or Gentile, and he's the king of Israel and the king of all nations. Timothy George: The king of Israel and the king of all nations. I've been talking about a brand new book called "The New Christian Zionism: Fresh Perspectives on Israel and the Land." My guests have been Dr. Gerald McDermott, Anglican Chair of Divinity at Beeson; Craig Blaising, who is Vice President and Provost at Southwestern; and Darrell Bock, senior research professor of New Testament studies at Dallas. Thank you all for this conversation! Craig Blaising: Thank you. Darrell Bock: My pleasure. Thank you. Announcer: You've been listening to the Beeson podcast with host Timothy George. You can subscribe to the Beeson podcast at our website: beesondivinity.com. Beeson Divinity School is an interdenominational evangelical divinity school training men and women in the service of Jesus Christ. We pray that this podcast will aid and encourage your work, and we hope you will listen to each upcoming edition of the Beeson podcast. https://www.beesondivinity.com/podcast/2017/The-New-Christian-Zionism