Beeson Podcast, Episode 365 Sasan Tavassoli November 7, 2017 Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. Now, your host, Timothy George. Timothy George: Welcome to today's Beeson Podcast. Today I have the honor of talking with Dr. Sasan Tavassoli. He's a guest here at Beeson Divinity School for one of our special emphases. It's a great privilege to welcome you to the Beeson Podcast. Sasan Tavassoli: Thank you, Dr. George. The honor is truly mine, and I've really enjoyed my time being with your community these past couple of days. Thank you for having me. Timothy George: Sure. Now, tell us a little bit about your own background. You are from the Middle East, a very strategic area of our world. Tell us about your background and how you got from there to where you are today. Sasan Tavassoli: Sure. I was actually born and raised in Iran. I come from the capital city of Tehran. I grew up in a Shiite Muslim home. Both my parents were practicing Sufi Muslims. Sufi Islam is the mystical wing of Islam. I grew up in a home at the time of the Shah of Iran, before the Islamic Revolution. I grew up in a home that was very progressive, very liberal in its religious orientation, a lot of discussions about literature and philosophy, poetries of Rumi and Hafez, so that's the home, the Muslim experience I had, growing up in Iran as a child in the 1970s. Then, when I was about 10 years old, we experienced the Iranian Revolution, the coming of the Ayatollah Khomeini. Some of my own relatives were executed right after the revolution, because of their association with the Shah of Iran. We saw a very different side of Islam, a very radical, anti-western, militant, extremist version of Islam, so I grew up with being exposed to two very different interpretations and practices of Islam. Timothy George: The revolution was 1979? Sasan Tavassoli: 1979, yes. Then, you had the American hostage crisis in 1980. That's my background, growing up in a Shiite Muslim country in a Sufi home and experiencing the Iranian Revolution. Then, we got in an eight-year war in the '80s, between Iran and Iraq, and about a million people were killed in that long war, and so a lot of families that could afford to would send their sons out of the country, so they would not be drafted into the military. My family decided to send me out, to basically save me from going to the front. I left Iran in 1984, the middle of the Iran-Iraq war, May of '84, four days before I turned 16. The significance of that is that if I had reached 16, then it would have been illegal for me to leave the country. I would have been banned from leaving the country, and I would have then had to serve in the military after graduating from high school. I got out right before I turned 16. My parents' plan was to send me to a Sufi Muslim community south of the UK in the Brighton area, south of England. Couldn't get a visa to go to England, and, by God's providence, I ended up going to Portugal and going to a Christian school, which had been started by a group of American missionaries. An independent group of American missionaries had established a church and an English-speaking school for the expat community in Portugal. Our plans was to go to a Muslim community in England. God's plan was for me to end up going to a Christian school in Portugal. It was through the ministry of this school and this church and the group of American missionaries, who befriended me and were kind to me and shared the gospel with me, that I came to Christ through their ministry in Portugal in 1985. Then, shortly after that, an American couple, who were touring Portugal, they met me. They sponsored me, and I ended up coming to America in the fall of '85 on a student visa. I've been living in the U.S. since 1985, so U.S. has been home to me for the past 32 years. Timothy George: I know you've lived a number of places, the UK. You've lived in Connecticut and New England, and now based in Atlanta. Sasan Tavassoli: Yes. Timothy George: Your ministry is wide, as well as deep. One of the things I want you to talk about, maybe, before we finish our conversation, is your book, Christian Encounters with Iran. Sasan Tavassoli: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Timothy George: A lot of people don't really understand, I think, Iran or the Muslim faith in general. You talk about the Sufi stream within Islam. The more general distinction is between Sunni Muslims and Muslims, who are Shia. Can you explain that to us? Sasan Tavassoli: Sure, sure. Statistically, about 85 to 90% of Muslims around the world are Sunni Muslims; 10 to 15% are Shiite Muslims, and Sufism goes in both camps, Shiite and Sunni. It's not a distinct group within Islam, but in terms of the fundamental difference between Shiite Islam and Sunni Islam is a difference about ... It happened, actually, it goes back into history right at the time of the death of Prophet Muhammad, and there was no successor that had been chosen by Prophet Muhammad to succeed him as the leader of the Muslim community, not in his office as a prophet, as Islam claims, but in his office as a leader of the community. The majority of Muslims picked an elder statesmen, one of the followers of Muhammad, to be their leader. A minority group says, "No, he's not the legitimate leader. We need to pick Muhammad's son-in-law and cousin, Ali." This split was about ... I mean, in Islam, there is really no difference between politics and theology and religion, but, at the core, the split was about who can lead the community and who has the authority to interpret the Scriptures and seek God's will for the community of believers. It's a political division, but it's also a theological division. Then, later in history, there was a lot of fighting between the Sunni group and the Shiite group, and the Shiite leaders were martyred and killed by the leaders of the Sunni community, so there's also deep hatred and animosity between Shiite Islam and Sunni Islam. But fundamentally the difference was about who should succeed Muhammad as the leader of the community. That's the difference. Timothy George: Iran is largely Shia; whereas, most, as you say, the rest of the Muslim world would be Sunni. Sasan Tavassoli: That's correct. Timothy George: You are from a country that was deeply impacted by the Shia Muslim community. Sasan Tavassoli: That's correct. Iran is the only officially Shiite country, but now Iraq is also ruled by a Shiite government, because the majority of people of Iraq are Shiite Muslims. Then there are Shiite communities all over the Middle East. Timothy George: Syria, Lebanon, places like that. Sasan Tavassoli: Yes, yes, mm-hmm (affirmative). Timothy George: Also, even Yemen, I think, as well. Sasan Tavassoli: Yes, and even there are Shiite populations in Saudi Arabia and in the Persian Gulf countries, so yes. Timothy George: Now, you're our guest here at Beeson. We're so glad to have you with us. You've made a tremendous impression on our community, our students, our faculty. You know, we are celebrating this year the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation. We consider ourselves to be a reformational seminary in a way. Sasan Tavassoli: Amen. Timothy George: I wonder if you would comment on how the Reformation has affected the Middle East, in particular Islam and Iranian society. Sasan Tavassoli: That's a great question. I'm not sure if I have a very precise or clear answer for this. When I did my PhD study at the University of Birmingham in England, I actually wanted to study the impact of Protestant theology on Iranian Shiite Muslim thinkers. For the most part, I did not find a great deal. Now, Iranian intellectuals look at someone like Martin Luther as a reformist, but Iranian Muslims, like all Muslims, believe that all religions are basically the same, because all prophets have come from God. So, in essence, what Jesus has said is not that different from what Muhammad has said, from what Moses has said. They look at all religions as originally having come from God. Of course, Muslims view that Christian teachings have been corrupted through the centuries, but they look at the Reformation from the perspective of Islam, that a religion can be led astray by its religious leaders, and you need reformers that bring revival and reformation to the true teachings of the prophets. They can view reformation as, yes, in the Medieval Period, the church had gone astray and someone like Luther brought reformation to the teachings of Jesus, and the same way that we need Muslim reformers to bring reform to Islam. We have a lot of Muslim reformers, who are inspired by Luther, not that they really know much about Protestant theology, but just this category that every religion can become corrupt through centuries, and you need people that bring reformation and revival to that religion. That's the mentality towards Luther and Protestant theology, but not a very deep engagement with Protestant thought and theology. Muslim intellectuals, who are interested in Christianity, are interested to understand more about Christian spirituality and Christian ethics, but they are very dismissive of Christian theology, in general. Timothy George: You know, the Reformation was an axial age. It was a turning point, in many ways. One of the great events of that era was the Fall of Constantinople in 1453, which set up a more intense conflict. It wasn't the origin, of course, of conflict, but the Ottoman Turks, in particular, Suleiman the Magnificent and others, led forces. There was a contest between Christendom, including both Catholics and Protestants and also Islam. That's often seen, in some ways, as presaging what one person has called the Clash of Civilizations. Do you have any thoughts about that analysis? Do you agree with that, or is there another way to see it? Sasan Tavassoli: Well, I mean, there's so much I can say, but the very phrase "Clash of Civilizations" that Samuel Huntington popularized, actually it was a huge impetus for the Iranian government to promote dialogue among civilizations, back in the early 2000s. One of our former presidents of Iran, President Khatami, actually proposed this idea, and the UN called the year 2001 the “Year of Dialogue Among Civilizations.” This idea of the Clash of Civilizations really started making some Muslims think that we don't want to clash with the West. We need to start a dialogue. Since the beginning of the 21st century, there has been a huge movement towards Muslim-Christian dialogue, not just among Sunni Muslims, but also among Iranian Shiites. In fact, that's basically the heart of my PhD research in my book, that Iran started getting engaged with dialogue with the Catholic church, with the Orthodox church, with the World Council of Churches. Unfortunately, Evangelicals were not present at the table. I've been trying to encourage Evangelicals to engage with Muslims on dialogue. In terms of the idea of the Clash of Civilizations has captured the heart of many Muslim intellectuals and thinkers. Some of them do not want to see a clash, so they want to promote the ideas of dialogue and better understanding. It is having an impact among some of the Iranian Shiite intellectuals and clerics, these dialogues, and a greater exposure to the Christian ideas. Timothy George: Well, let me go back to the Reformation and ask you about the role of the Scriptures, the Bible, in particular. Of course, the printing press was invented, in the West anyway, in the 15th century, 1455. The first book published was the Bible in Latin. Soon, the printing press became an agent of religious change, an agent, some would say, of revolution, in some ways, at least in consciousness and in learning, literacy. Say a little bit about the Bible, the Scriptures, in Iran. Do people in Iran have access to the Bible? Can they read the Scriptures in their own language? Sasan Tavassoli: Bibles are basically illegal in Iran, by the Iranian government. We had an Iranian Bible Society that was shut down a few years after the revolution. We have now started an Iranian Bible Society in Diaspora, under the umbrella of the United Bible Society, but Bibles are basically illegal. We have a number of translations of the Bible, some older translations. Translations that happened about over a hundred years ago, and some newer translations. We have a number of good translations of the Bible, but there are ministries outside of Iran that print Bibles and then smuggle Bibles into Iran. Another new platform is digital, digital platforms and smartphones. There is access to the Scriptures, online access. Even the Iranian government blocks Christian websites, but Iranians know how to bypass that. Bibles are not freely available, but if an Iranian wants to have a Bible, with some effort they can have access to a Bible. And there are lots of ministries that are printing Bibles, sending Bibles to Iran, and God is using, in a significant way, the sending of Scriptures into Iran, again through printed materials, digital resources. The Bible is being used significantly in the expansion of the gospel in Iran. Timothy George: Tell us a little bit about the history of the Christian witness, the mission in Iran, and, in particular ... Bibles are not legally permitted, though, as you've just explained, there are ways about access. What about missionary activity? Sasan Tavassoli: Let me say this, actually, to your audience. I want the American church to know that we had an ancient, vibrant church in Iran, Church of the East. Philip Jenkins and others, Samuel Moffett, late professor at Princeton Seminary, they have documented in some of their books that there was an ancient, vibrant Christian presence in Iran and in the Middle East. In fact, I want your audience to also know that it was Iranians, the Church of the East, who took the gospel to China in the seventh century. We have archeological proof of that in Chinese archeology about how the Persian monks, on silk roads, traveled to China. In fact, Richard Foltz, a scholar of religion, in his book, Religion in the Land of the Noble, says that for the first 100 years, the Chinese called Christianity the Persian religion, because they had heard the gospel from Iranian missionaries. We have a glorious history, but that history was wiped out with the advent of Islam and the invasion by the Mughals in the 12th century and so on and so forth. The church kind of died out for many centuries. The advent of modern Christianity, modern mission, in Iran goes back to the 1830s. American Presbyterian missionaries went to Iran and other parts of the Middle East around the 1830s. The American missionaries, some of them, were doctors and educators. The plan was to, because of the history of the Church of the East, which the Americans ... When the Americans went to Iran, that Church of the East later was called the Nestorian Church, and then, when the American missionaries went there, they called it the Assyrian Church, Assyrian Christian Community. When American missionaries first went to Iran in the 1830s, their vision was to bring revival to Assyrian Christian communities and have the Assyrians rediscover their missionary zeal to then start spreading the gospel once again in Persia. That did not work out, and the Assyrians, as a minority oppressed community, wanted to keep their faith to themselves and protect themselves, so eventually American missionaries started engaging with the Iranian Muslim communities. Later on, the Anglican church sent mission of work to Iran. Missionary activity goes back to the early part of the 19th century, but basically all of that came to an abrupt halt at the time of the revolution. All American missionaries were kicked out in 1980, and the Iranian government accused them of all being CIA agents. I have the newspaper article that was published with all the pictures of the American missionaries when they were all kicked out. A number of leaders were assassinated. Anglican pastors were assassinated in the beginning of the revolution. There was an abrupt halt to all missionary activity in Iran, and the Iranian regime says, "This is now going to be the end of the church, now that the Americans and other Western missionaries are kicked out." Before the revolution, there was relative freedom under the Shah of Iran, for Westerners to come and work and all that stuff. And missionaries did great work in Iran and around the Middle East, in establishing hospitals, bringing modern education, establishing orphanages, doing evangelism and discipleship. It's estimated that at the end, in 1979 after 150 years of faithful missionary service in Iran, some of those missionaries died and are buried in Iran to this day, but it's estimated that, in 1979, we had 500 Iranian converts in the church, converts to the Christian faith from a Muslim background. There was not a lot of response to the Gospel, not only, because Iran was a Muslim nation, is a Muslim nation, but because people, at the time of the Shah, really wanted to pursue their own version of the American dream. They were not interested in spiritual things or things- Timothy George: More materialism and- Sasan Tavassoli: More materialism and all this, and because of the Islamic atmosphere of the country, very closed to these ideas, but 38 years have passed since then, and we estimate--nobody knows the exact numbers, but we estimate--that we have more than one million Iranians, who have professed faith in Christ in Iran right now. The Iranian regime thought that's the end of the church, but Jesus has had other plans for the church, and I want to remind the Americans all the time that Jesus is sitting on the throne, is Lord of history, and despite all the ups and downs of history, He's actually building His Church in the Islamic Republic of Iran, and it's an exciting time for the growth of the Gospel. Because of the disillusionment with Islam, because of the broken promises of the Iranian Revolution, people are really open to consider the claims of Christ, to consider the gospel. Many Iranians are becoming very burnt out on God and religion. They are becoming secularized. They are becoming atheists and agnostic. Some are dabbling in eastern religious mysticism and all that, but, in the midst of this spiritual search, many Iranians are coming to faith in Christ. It's an incredible time in the history of the gospel in our country. Timothy George: You used the word a while ago "diaspora" and, of course, there are many Iranian Christians in diaspora, who are not living in the geographical limits of the country of Iran today. You are, yourself, very involved in many ways with a diaspora community. I wonder if you would say a little bit about the Pars Theological Centre, which is based in the UK, where you did your PhD, in Birmingham. Tell us a little bit about that and your role in it. Sasan Tavassoli: Thank you for asking that question. We estimate that there are about five to six million Iranians living outside of Iran in diaspora. There are hundreds of thousands of Iranians right now in Turkey, as refugees, many Iranians in the U.S., in Canada, all over Europe, in Australia, all over Asia. Diaspora is a vibrant community. There are many Iranians, who are also becoming Christians in diaspora. We have a lot of Iranian churches and fellowships all around the world. We've realized that there is a desperate need for theological education and leadership development in the Iranian Christian community, both inside Iran and among Iranians in diaspora. There are very few Iranian pastors, who have had any kind of formal training or theological education. A few years ago, a number of my Iranian colleagues and I, we established an Iranian Bible college, Pars Theological Centre. Pars is the old world for Persia or Iran. Timothy George: Like the language Parsi? Sasan Tavassoli: Farsi, that's right. That's right. Our goal and vision is to eventually have a fully accredited bachelor's program. We have produced over 20 courses in the past few years. Our courses are online courses, so we record all our courses. Some of our courses are aired on satellite television, and I would love for us to talk about that a little bit later, but all our courses are available online. We also have a lot of students inside Iran, but because of Internet security issues, we don't want them to be online. They have all our courses on digital flash drives, other resources, so they can take their classes online. We have online programs, online courses, but we also do spiritual formation conferences for our students. One week a year, we require our students to attend a spiritual formation conference. Then, there is a component of practical ministry experience. We don't want to just give head knowledge to Iranian leaders and pastors. We want to really have an impact, in terms of character development, spiritual formation, leadership development. Theological education is desperately needed. As the church is growing, as you are a scholar of these issues, there can be a lot of heresies and false teachings within the church, a lot of shallow understandings of the Scripture. There is a desperate need. Iranians are doing well right now, in terms of evangelism, witnessing to their relatives, friends, and all that, but, in terms of a deeper understanding of the faith, there is a huge need for that, and we believe that Pars is uniquely equipped to meet that need. Timothy George: What are some particular theological challenges that you would say Iranian Christians, in particular, the church is facing today? Sasan Tavassoli: A number of theological, and then I will also say non-theological, challenges. For example, the doctrine of the Trinity is a huge challenge. In fact, one of the sects or cults that's growing among Iranians is the Oneness Pentecostal Movement, the Jesus Only Movement. Because coming from an Islamic background, it's a struggle to grapple with the doctrine of the Trinity. Some of the extreme forms of maybe charismatic understanding of the faith. We don't need any medicine. We can just kind of ... I don't want to say Prosperity Gospel, but things that might be looking like Prosperity Gospel, with "name it and claim it," and "just have faith and God will do whatever you want," so a shallow understanding of the depth of Scripture, dealing with suffering and pain, and so on and so forth. On the theological realm, those are the challenges, but then we have a lot of character issues. We have a lot of new believers, who are moved into a position of leadership, but they don't have the character maturity, the spiritual maturity, to be in that position. They become very authoritarian and then dictatorial in their approach to pastoral leadership. Iranians struggle with interpersonal relationships. Iranians are passionate when they come to faith, but, when they get together as a group, there can be a lot of dysfunctions as a team. So we see that struggle manifest themselves in our Iranian churches, and the churches splitting because of interpersonal conflicts. So a lot of theological challenges that we need to address, but also character issues, interpersonal relationship challenges that we have to face. These are some of the things that come to my mind right now. Timothy George: Let me ask you a question. Earlier in our conversation, we talked about the difference between Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims and Sufi. You pointed out, in both traditions there are Sufi. Sasan Tavassoli: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Timothy George: It seems to me that there is an openness to miracles, to special revelations and prophecy, particularly in the Shia, and maybe even more so in Sufi Islam. Does that mean that there is a greater openness, perhaps, to the transcendental message of Christianity, God breaking into our lives, revealing Himself in Jesus Christ? Sasan Tavassoli: Absolutely. I mean, more and more westerners are even reporting this phenomenon, that when you listen to the testimonies of many Muslims, the element of having dreams and visions of Jesus is a huge part of many testimonies. Then, not just dreams and visions ... Let me say this. I know sometimes Americans might get concerned about dreams and visions. In the vast majority of cases that I've heard, the dream and vision points the person to go and read the Bible, points the person to watch Christian programs or connect with Christian friends or a Christian community. It brings an openness to start the spiritual search, in the dreams and visions that a lot of times we hear about. Or, many Muslims already believe in Jesus, as a Great Prophet, so they pray to Jesus. They pray to Jesus to heal them, to deliver them from oppression, to help with their brokenness, and Jesus shows up. Jesus answers prayers. Jesus heals. Jesus delivers. Yes, so I like to, when I speak in American churches, I say Jesus is running around loose in the Muslim world. This is an exciting time. Yes, that's part of their culture, the openness, as you said, to the transcendental realm, the openness to dreams, openness to miracles, but part of it is that Jesus really shows up in very concrete ways. I have so many stories of people being healed, when they ask Jesus to heal them. Dr. George, one of the most phenomenal ways that God is at work, in Iran for example, is people ... Drug addiction has become a huge problem in the Islamic Republic of Iran. Iran has one of the highest rates of depression, anger, suicide among women. There is a tremendous despair at every level of society. So addiction has become a huge issue in our culture. Many people are now going to the 12-step NA program, and, in these 12 steps, they are encountering Jesus. They are opening up to a spirituality, which is not based on Islamic spirituality, but very much within a Christian world view, in many ways. Yeah, Jesus is showing up. Jesus is healing and touching lives. That's one significant way that the gospel is moving forward in Iran. Timothy George: Jesus is on the loose in the Muslim world. Well, my guest today has been Dr. Sasan Tavassoli, a wonderful scholar, an activist on behalf of the Christian faith within the greater Muslim world, based now in Atlanta, but really with a ministry that reaches right around the world. We thank God for you and for your visit to Beeson. We pray every blessing on you, as you go forward with this wonderful witness for Jesus Christ and His gospel today. Sasan Tavassoli: Thank you. Thank you for having me, and it's been an honor for me to be your guest today. Thank you. Announcer: You've been listening to the Beeson Podcast, with host, Timothy George. 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